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The Tree and Garden

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by npetreley, Nov 11, 2007.

  1. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Yes. :rolleyes:
    Don't be ridiculous.

    No, I'm saying that God put that tree in the garden ON PURPOSE. He knew they would eat of it. He knew they would die because of it. He knew the whole human race would suffer and die because of it.
    It all could have been avoided by simply NOT putting the tree in the garden and NOT allowing Satan to tempt Eve. Therefore, unless you think God didn't know how it would turn out, it had to have been planned for a PURPOSE. Otherwise, God is not all knowing, all powerful and had no determined purpose in creating man and the universe.
    You would have to believe in the big bang theory of God setting things in motion and just sitting back a watching how it all turns out.
     
  2. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    I agree there was a purpose. God desired man's obedience. He knew exactly how things would turn out (that's omniscience). That in no way means God desired for man to eat from the tree as has been argued here lately. It sounds like you are holding to determinism.
     
  3. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    Exactly! It's pretty simple, isn't it?
     
  4. russell55

    russell55 New Member

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    I think we can understand something about the plan. Scripture as God's revelation to us is the story of redemption. The centerpiece of God's plan for creation was to give his Son to redeem it. And without sinful human beings, there would be no redemption.
     
  5. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    I don't know about determinism. I really get tired of being accused of holding to any ism, especially when I don't even know what it means. I am "holding" to scripture.

    Here are the FACTS:

    God created man and had perfect fellowship with him.

    God put a tree in the garden and told man not to eat of it or he would die.

    God allowed Satan to tempt the man.

    God knew the man would fall to the temptation of Satan.

    God knew the man would eat of the tree.

    God knew the man would die.

    God knew man would need a Redeemer.

    God made a plan for a Redeemer of man before he created him.

    God could have NOT put the tree in the garden.

    God could have NOT allowed Satan to tempt the man.

    God could have maintained a perfect fellowship with the man.

    BUT.....

    God put the tree in the garden.......

    I think you know the rest of the story.

    That's the facts. The "why" I cannot tell you. I can tell you that God did the right thing. He is good.
     
  6. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    Amen. That is what's called "faith". ;)

    We do know some of the "why", though. God did it for His glory. If anyone here can explain how the Father/Son/Holy Spirit could be glorified in the same ways without sin, then maybe you should apply for a job as God's counsellor. ;)
     
  7. menageriekeeper

    menageriekeeper Active Member

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    I added the numbers to make it easier to attach my answers to your questions.

    1. The scripture says exactly what you are saying, that Adam could have continued eating the fruit of the Tree of Life had God not tossed him out. Why do think God put an angel with a flaming sword at the gate? Leaving the Garden was part of Adam's punishment. I can hardly see how it would be an act of Grace but I'd be interested in your opinion.

    2. I believe in this case "live forever" means never having our physical bodies die, thus circumventing God's plan for redemption. Remember Satan's lie? "you won't surely die" Satan like all good liars kept his as close to the truth as possible. He knew that the death that God spoke of was a spiritual one although there was a physical aspect. Why Adam or Eve didn't realize the difference, we're not told. But Satan knew that physical death wouldn't be immediate. The only reason for that is the existance of the tree of life. Satan was doing his best to circumvent the plan he knew God already had lined up.

    3. I don't think we can presume either. I offered the idea that they had eaten of the tree of life soley as a possible explanation for the extended life spans of the time. There could be other explanations for this phenomonem.

    4. I don't know, Grasshopper. I can't imagine what life would be like if man kept reproducing but no one ever died. Certainly by this point in time there wouldn't be enough resources to support constant life by as many as have been born. No death would possibly mean continual suffering on earth with no way out. Or, there might have been war upon war over control of the tree. It really doesn't matter. God decree death as punishment for Adam's sin, guarding the tree could only have been extra insurance that he didn't go back in and seek to find a way around God's plan. And you know he would have. Man is constantly trying to find a way to get to heaven without following God's plan.
     
    #27 menageriekeeper, Nov 12, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 12, 2007
  8. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    God's glory is the only explanation my pea brain can understand. :laugh: Other than that, I don't know why or how God thinks.


    Isa 55:8 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," declares the LORD. (thank you Jesus!)
     
  9. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Uh oh, another thought! Double :eek: :eek:

    I can't wait to see the responses to this! :laugh:

    God is the beginning of the "circle". The Father desired to give the Son a gift.
    But the gift had to be as pure as the Son. Since the Son wasn't created but always existed, God had to create man and then purify (perfect) him through Christ, Who is perfect.
    The fall occurred (was planned), man needed a redeemer to raise him to life as Christ is life. Through Christ he is made pure, righeous and holy, as Christ is pure, righteous and holy.

    At the end of the age when God rids the universe of evil, what is left is the perfect gift of holy, righteous and pure human beings (being made so through Christ) who God gives it to the Son. A perfect bride for His perfect Son.

    We are the gift God gives to Christ and Christ is God's gift to us and thus the circle is complete.

    A perfect circle of purpose and life.

    It all had to happen just the way God planned.

    Ok, now you can :tonofbricks:
     
  10. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    I don't necessarily disagree with some of your answers, but these are some of the questions I have regarding this topic. I think there is much we don't know about this yet have built entire doctrines based upon certain assumptions.
     
  11. reformedbeliever

    reformedbeliever New Member

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    You seem to be saying that God has to learn what man will do before He can set things into motion or make a choice of His sovereign will. That makes God not all knowing, and makes men's choice sovereign over God.
     
  12. reformedbeliever

    reformedbeliever New Member

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    I don't have a problem with an almighty sovereign God determining all that happens. Do you? Would you rather man determine it?
     
  13. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    That's the free-willer motto. "You ain't the boss of me, God!"

    :laugh:
     
  14. Alex Quackenbush

    Alex Quackenbush New Member

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    Apparently to you God's Sovereignty is so weak that it is threatened by human volition (never mind God created human volition) and His Sovereignty so limited that it cannot incorporate the exercise of human volition in His decree(s).

    And you blame Non-Calvinists for a weak position on Divine Sovereignty?
     
  15. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    I think....however I could be wrong, that this was but a carry over from the last thread, which helps if you show the last few thoughts.

    what do you think? :)
     
  16. Alex Quackenbush

    Alex Quackenbush New Member

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    The use of analogies are quite legitimate to illustrate points. Here, however, the analogy begins with its own demise when human decision making is compared to Divine determinations and considerations. It is one thing for God to anthropomorphise himself in Scripture through comparison to human properties but it is quite another for a human to qualify God's determinations subordinate to theirs.

    But the worse part of this is that it clearly implies the charge of God wanting Adam or at least failing to make sure Adam, did not sin. God here is being assigned some form of negligence or deliberation regarding the sin of Adam. Preposterous on a good day.
     
  17. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    I see you made it though that post. Alive at that. :)

    Maybe we can get to a higher plan on this thread, we shall see.


    Being God desired to have the tree in the garden as Allan has said and all would agree, and having placed the tree and knowing Adam would sin, and given that there is no other known transgression to Gods will in the “arena” (said for Q laughing pleasure only), if the tree was not positioned in the garden, do we know of any other offense toward God that Adam could encounter based on the limited information given from the account?
     
  18. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    How can both man and God be sovereign at the same time?

    How can God have a plan and carry it out if He depends on sovereign, sinful man to accomplish it? Man does not desire to please God in the slightest until he is born again. How does God get His way with these people? Does He just sit up in heaven and wait until someone just happens to do something that is part of His plan?

    Have you ever been in charge of a group of people who you had selected to carry out your directives? Did you just wait until one of them "happened" to do something you needed done? If you are going to lead people, you have to lead them and make sure your plans are carried out. Yet, you say God uses the sovereign decisions of man to accomplish His will. That doesn't even make sense.

    It is you who are limiting God by placing sovereignty in the hands of sinful, selfish human beings.

    "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done".
     
  19. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    I guess I'm just too stupid to debate with you. Your pompous form of writing eludes me.

    Thank the Lord my Bible is not written in this manner or I wouldn't have a clue what God was trying to teach me.
     
  20. JustChristian

    JustChristian New Member

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    I started a thread on this topic but no one pickedd up on it. I think most would rather argue than to agree that Calvinists and Arminians have most if not everything in common.
     
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