The Tree and Garden

Brother, I believe with all my heart that I'm one of the elect. I still need His admonishing daily...... sometimes a double dose.

 

We all do, but not to the point of our destruction.

BBob, raying:

 

I wish I had written that--that seems to be something I would definitely agree to. Thanks, Npet. :thumbs:

 

I didn't say the reason was given in this thread. In this thread, no nonCalvinist has given a reason. Nevertheless, I've been having these conversations for 10 years or so, and when pressed for a reason for God to permit sin, human free will is usually the reason given, so I'm not speaking in a vacuum.

The free will philosopher that goes to my home Bible study gives this as the reason.

Ever read C. S. Lewis's Problem of Pain? He, too, gives human free will as the reason for the presence of sin in creation, and if human free will is really the ultimate reason for the presence of sin, the human free will is God's ultimate reason for allowing the presence of sin.

If this is the case, then God deciding to create human beings with volitional capacity was also a decision to allow sin.

Do you have another ultimate reason God decided to allow sin to enter creation? What would that be?

But when you boil that statement, it is man's freedom of choice that is the purpose for God's allowing sin. You are simply proving my point.

And God incorporated that choice to sin into his plan? That means that it was human beings who, by their choice to sin, determined what God's plan for creation history would ultimately be.

As I said, I've done lots of reading, conversing, etc on this subject over the years. But if you disagree, tell me what is the real reason that God decided to permit Adam to sin, according to nonCalvinists?

 

One does not "prove" what is apparent. For someone to be proven it is treated factually. When one uses the word "apparently" that means they are qualifying it as not being treated as a fact but a possibility.

Now, you can ask for me to explain why it is apparent to me as when I said:

And my answer would be it is apparent to me because of what you said:
Post #12

 

Where did you use the qualifier "apparently" with me? C'mon Alex...... steady man.

edited to add. I see from the above response to me that you quoted where you did use the word apparently. Thanks for providing the quote.

 

So, again I will ask you. What you have posted translates to God allowing sin, and remain Sovereign.
Why can't He allow "repentance" and remain Sovereign??

I don't think you are going to answer it, but maybe I have given you something to study on. Thanks,

BBob,

 

I appreciate your clarification speaking to a group of people in a thread and then qualifying statements about what you believe they believe but it does not include them isn't the most effective form of debate or dialogue.

Yes God did decide to permit sin to occur via the decision of Adam

Yes, it is related to the reason for man's creation in the first place as it relates to the Angelic conflict in Angelic history in eternity past. This is of course another thread topic and worth discovering elsewhere and if you wish it can be discussed in another thread.

I certainly disagree that your point is being proved but you are obviously your own determiner for your own mind what you believe is true or not. As for what non-Calvinist believe I can give you some of what some believe but not all and I can give you all of what I believe.

 

Keep reading Alex. You will find my response in this thread where I stated that I do in fact believe that God does use our choices to accomplish His purposes. I stated that our choices will always be consistent with God's decreed will. Go back and read Alex.

 

If God directly causes you to sin, it does make him the "author" of sin (at least in the sense that people usually use the expression), but the "sinner" or "wrongdoer" is still you.

Since sin is the transgression of divine law, for God to be a sinner or wrongdoer in this case, he must decree a moral law that forbids himself to be the author of sin, and then when he acts as the author of sin anyway, he becomes a sinner or wrongdoer.

But unless this happens, for God to be the author of sin does not make him a sinner or wrongdoer. The terms "author," "sinner," "wrongdoer," and "tempter" are relatively precise... at least precise enough to be distinguished from one another, and for God to be the "author" of sin says nothing about whether he is also a "sinner," "wrongdoer," or a "tempter." And for one not to be a wrongdoer by definition means that he has not done wrong. Therefore, even if God is the author of sin, it does not automatically follow that there is anything wrong with it, or that he is a wrongdoer.

However, this is not to distance God from evil, for to "author" the sin implies far more control over the sinner and the sin than to merely tempt. Whereas the devil (or a person's (lust) may be the tempter, and the person might be the sinner, it is God who directly and completely controls both the tempter and the sinner, and the relationship between them.

And although God is not himself the tempter, he deliberately and sovereignly sends evil spirits to tempt and to torment. But in all of this, God is righteous by definition.

 

And with that illumination it is time for a nocturnal meditation and tomorrow will come soon enough.

 

If God "plans" sin, He is the author of it, and I do not accept that.

BBob,

 

The point I was making is that it is apparently "apparent" to you that I do not believe in human volition. I do believe in human volition. I just believe that God's sovereign providence is able to use human volition to accomplish His purposes exactly according to His plan.

 

Sorry James;
But this is exactly why we split from the Calvinist in 1893, I do not accept that God is the Author of Sin. How could we condemn sin, or how could God condemn sin, if He caused it. There would be no such thing a morality, if God authored the sin we committed. We would be nothing but robots.

BBob,

 

“In days to come, O Gog, I will bring you against my land so that the nations may know me when I show myself holy though you before their eyes.”

In the passage above do you feel Gog will be punished for coming down on the land?

 

if you read the post, you will find the use of the phrase to show even if this were the case, it would not make God a sinner. Sin is a path away from God, and if it is Gods will, then how it is sin.


But like most Calvinist on this board I do not see it that way. God is in full control, and yet apart from sin, even though God does use sin and counts on mens lust to bring about His will.