The tri-une lie of Sunday-sacredness

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Gerhard Ebersoehn, Jan 17, 2005.

  1. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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  2. Chemnitz

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    Huh? What is your point? The title doesn't seem to have anything to do with your post.
     
  3. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    These are the three famous, infamous 'texts' that 'prove' the Church observed Sunday and not the Sabbath, whereas the bare facts of them, declare and imply just the opposite.
    1Cor.16:1-2; Facts: The hard-working fellows had to as soon as possible after their week's labour, had to work out their contribution and put it it apart, individually, each at his own house, so that, comes the day Paul arrives, he could get all together and have it sent to jerusalem. Implication: The Congregation rested on the Sabbath worshipping, not attending to monetary matters.
    Acts 20:7, Facts: The disciples, after they had come together for Holy Communion, and while being together still on the evening the First Day of the week, Paul dealt with them on matters ..." Implication: They on the Sabbath Day had Holy Communion.
     
  4. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    Oh yes, this unity of three lies lack spirit, so I'll pass Rv.1:10.
     
  5. Chemnitz

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    Um no, in Acts 20:7 the greek for when they gathered together is a perfect participle, this suggests that it occured the same day as when Paul spoke to them, which occured on the first day following after the Sabbath.
     
  6. BobRyan

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    It could very well have been "week-day-1" and not Sabbath as the meeting could have been on Saturday evening - so that they were meeting in the evening after the Sabbath rest - while planning to travel all day on "week-day-1".

    But wouldn't this have been a great place to introduce "week-day-1" with some title of honor -- like "The Lord's Day"?? (If one were in fact introducing such a concept to the first century church).

    And this is not a "week-day-1" after "week-day-1" cycle - it is singular instance of a farewell address prior to departing.

    If on the other hand this is being done on Sunday evening - with travel on Monday - then the bulk of the meeting is on what the Bible would call "week-day-2" and you would be arguing for "week-day-2" as a traditional holy day!

    Which is it?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  7. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    Your answers seem to be pre-fabricated and simply copied and pasted for every counter-idea.
    You give no attention to another's point of view, and it simply is seneless to argue with you.
     
  8. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    Ther Perfect Participle in the first place is not a finite verb- it doesn't indicated or represent an act in the happening - so disciples DID not "gather" "on the First Day".
    It being a Participle, and that in the the Perfect aspect of time, represents dual-time, the first as had happened before the time-indication of the context - Saturday-evening - and the second the result of the earlier event as still going on on the contextual time-indication, Saturday-night.
    Therefore to render the Participle as a Verb as most Versions do, is premeditated falsification of the Text; and to render the Perfect as an Aorist, is confirmation of the translator's mischievous intention!
    This CANNOT be a case of laziness, but must be wilful unfaithfulness to the Word. It has the objective of justifying what in the Word of God has never been sanctified or justified.
     
  9. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    But it is bad manners of me to shrug you like that.
    You ask, which day was it implied or mentioned, I return the question. Mentioned: Sunday, because a day in Bible-reckoning has only one "evening" and that is the evening of the night it starts with.
    Implied: The Perfect Participle indicates the first aspect of the word had to have happened BEFORE the PRESENT continuation-result-aspect of the word "on the evening of the First Day" - so, Sabbath Day!
     
  10. Claudia_T

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    Some people believe that Acts 20:7-12 is proof that the disciples kept Sunday as a holy day.

    According to the Bible, each day begins at sundown and ends the next day at sundown (Gen. 1:5,8,13,29,23,31; Leviticus 23:32)and the dark part of the day comes first. So Sabbath begins Friday night at sundown and ends Saturday night at sundown. This meeting of Acts 20 was held on the dark part of Sunday, or on what we now call Saturday night. The New English Bible begins Acts 20:7 like this: "On the Saturday night in our assembly..." It was a Saturday night meeting and it lasted until midnight. Paul was on a farewell tour amd knew he would not see these people again before his death (verse 25). This is why he preached so long. (No regular weekly service would've lasted all night).

    Paul was "ready to depart on the morrow". The "Breaking of bread" has no "holy day" significance whatever, because they broke bread daily (Acts 2:46). There is not the slightest indication in this Scripture passage that the first day is holy, nor that these early Christians considered it so. Nor is there the remotest evidence that the Sabbath has been changed.


    Claudia
    http://www.christiangraphics.org
     
  11. Claudia_T

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    Then there's 1Corinthians 16:1,2. Doesnt this speak of Sunday School offerings? some say...

    No, there is no reference here to a public meeting. This money was to be laid aside privately at home. A famine was raging in Judea (Romans 15:26; Acts 11:26-30), and Paul was writing to ask the churches in Asia Minor to assist their famine-stricken brethren. These Christians all kept Sabbath holy, so Paul suggested that on Sunday morning (which was the time they paid bills and settled accounts), after the Sabbath was over, they put aside something for their needy brethren so it would be on hand when he came. It was to be done privately, or as La Santa Biblia (a Spanish translation) says "at home". Notice also that there is no reference here to Sunday as a holy day. In fact, the Bible nowhere commands or even suggests Sundaykeeping.


    Claudia
    http://www.christiangraphics.org
     
  12. Claudia_T

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    But isnt John 20:19 the record of the disciples instituting Sundaykeeping in honor of the resurrection?

    On the contrary, the disciples at this time did not believe that the resurrection had even taken place (Mark 16:14). They had met there "for fear of the Jews" and had the doors bolted. When Jesus appeared in their midst, He rebuked them "because they believed not them which had seen him asfter he was risen". There is no inference that they counted Sunday as a holy day. Only eight texts in the Bible mention the first day of the week; not a one of them infer that it is holy.

    Claudia
    http://www.christiangraphics.org
     
  13. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    Yes Claudia,
    Only you only see the obvious. But there is more to it - there is also the implied.
    Now please re-read what I've written, and yo will see the IMPORTANCE for the Sabbath Day in these two Scriptures. You seem to be oblivious to it - no ill feelings!
     
  14. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    Sorry! This time I, didn't read! Thought you referred to 1Cor.16:1-2.
    But you did mention Acts 20:7. You don't remember I explained Paul did NOT "preach" that Saturday night?
    As concerns Jn.20:19 - please read from www.biblestudents.co.za my investigation of this text. It's shocking the way the original is manhandled - what you get certainly is not what you see - in the original!
     
  15. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    Bit of a mix-up! No, my before last post was relevant!
     
  16. Claudia_T

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    the Sabbath commandment is the very commandment that Satan would seek to change and even obliterate, because it identifies God as the Creator and sets Him apart from every false god!

    Ezekiel 22:
    25: There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion ravening the prey; they have devoured souls; they have taken the treasure and precious things; they have made her many widows in the midst thereof.

    NOTICE THIS:
    26: Her priests have violated my law, and have profaned mine holy things: they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they shewed difference between the unclean and the clean, and have hid their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them.

    27: Her princes in the midst thereof are like wolves ravening the prey, to shed blood, and to destroy souls, to get dishonest gain.

    28: And her prophets have daubed them with untempered morter, seeing vanity, and divining lies unto them, saying, Thus saith the Lord GOD, when the LORD hath not spoken.

    Note.--Untempered mortar is that which is improperly worked, and will not therefore hold together or stand the test. Thus it is with the reasons advanced for keeping Sunday instead of the Bible Sabbath, the seventh day. They are not only unsound and untenable in themselves, but are utterly inconsistent, contradictory, and destructive one of the other, among themselves. In nothing, perhaps, is a lack of agreement better illustrated than in the reasonings assigned for Sundaykeeping. Note the following:

    One says the Sabbath has been changed from the seventh, to the first day of the week.

    Another says that the Sabbath commandment requires only one day of rest after six days of labor, and hence there has been no change.

    Some reason that all ought to keep Sunday, because although, as they affirm, God did not appoint a particular day, yet agreement is necessary; and to have any or every day a sabbath would be equal to no sabbath at all.

    Others, to avoid the claims of God's law, assert that the Sabbath precept is one of those ordinances which was against us, contrary to us, blotted out, and nailed to the cross. Still they admit that a day of rest and convocation is necessary, and therefore the day of Christ's resurrection, they say, has been chosen.

    Another class say they believe it is impossible to know which is the seventh day, although they have no difficulty in locating the first.

    Some are so bold as to claim that Sunday is the original seventh day.

    Others, with equal certainty, say that those who keep the seventh day are endeavoring to be justified by the law and are fallen from grace.

    Another class, with more liberal views, say they believe that every one should be fully persuaded in their own mind, whether he keep this day, or that, or none at all.

    Still again, as if having found the great desideratum or missing link in the argument, men credited with even more than ordinary intelligence, will sometimes declare that it is impossible to keep the seventh day on a round and rolling earth; yet strangely, they find no difficulty in keeping Sunday anywhere, and believe that this day should be observed the world over!

    However, said Christ, "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:19

    What does the Lord say will become of this wall "daubed with untempered mortar"?

    Ezekiel 13:
    1: And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
    2: Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, Hear ye the word of the LORD;
    3: Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing!
    4: O Israel, thy prophets are like the foxes in the deserts.
    5: Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the LORD.
    6: They have seen vanity and lying divination, saying, The LORD saith: and the LORD hath not sent them: and they have made others to hope that they would confirm the word.
    7: Have ye not seen a vain vision, and have ye not spoken a lying divination, whereas ye say, The LORD saith it; albeit I have not spoken?
    8: Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye have spoken vanity, and seen lies, therefore, behold, I am against you, saith the Lord GOD.
    9: And mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of my people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I am the Lord GOD.
    10: Because, even because they have seduced my people, saying, Peace; and there was no peace; and one built up a wall, and, lo, others daubed it with untempered morter:
    11: Say unto them which daub it with untempered morter, that it shall fall: there shall be an overflowing shower; and ye, O great hailstones, shall fall; and a stormy wind shall rend it.

    What does it mean in Ezekiel 13 verse 5 when when God condemns the false prophets for not "going into the gaps"?: Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the LORD.? All we have to do to find out is look at what the true prophets would tell God's people. These who would call the people BACK to a keeping of the true Sabbath and those who would heed their call would be called they who "build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in" -or in other words they stand to fill the gap that had been made in the wall (the wall, the commandments, the "paths to dwell in" -Psalm 119:35). And the true prophets would rebuke God's people who claim they are His children while they forsake God's law and His Sabbath. Read:

    Isaiah 58:
    1: Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and shew my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins.
    2: Yet they seek me daily, and delight to know my ways, as a nation that did righteousness, and forsook not the ordinance of their God: they ask of me the ordinances of justice; they take delight in approaching to God.
    3: Wherefore have we fasted, say they, and thou seest not? wherefore have we afflicted our soul, and thou takest no knowledge? Behold, in the day of your fast ye find pleasure, and exact all your labours.
    4: Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not fast as ye do this day, to make your voice to be heard on high.
    5: Is it such a fast that I have chosen? a day for a man to afflict his soul? is it to bow down his head as a bulrush, and to spread sackcloth and ashes under him? wilt thou call this a fast, and an acceptable day to the LORD?
    6: Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?
    7: Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?
    8: Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the LORD shall be thy rereward.
    9: Then shalt thou call, and the LORD shall answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am. If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity;
    10: And if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noonday:
    11: And the LORD shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not.
    12: And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.
    13: If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
    14: Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.
     
  17. Claudia_T

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    Gerhard ...I will try and come back soon as I can to read what you said... right now I'm in a rush and have to complete lots of tasks before the day is over.

    Claudia
     
  18. TP

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    Greetings,

    The sunday worship thing is great for us CAtholics: It has been done so from the beginning, and we do it now. Its called Tradition. We don't have to argue about Sunday. It has just always been Sunday. Lots of Church Father's point to sunday, and they would know better than we do 2000 years later.

    peace
     
  19. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    I have peace with what's great for you Roman Catholics as for them Protestants. Lots of Church fathers don't bother me either because neither knew they anything better than we 2000 years later, nor understood they anything better. They were true representatives of what is nowadays 2000 years later, called 'the dark ages' - even by the RCC themselves!
    We grope in darkness if God's Written Word is not a light for our feet for sure! Tradition? That's rather old fashioned? But critical rethinking of our old values, that's 'in' I should say. As long as the oldest of all those values remains the main 'Tradition' to us, the Scriptures!
    So by their own admittance the RCs haven't got much of a case in any case.
    But I'm not burdened because of the RC CHURCH - only for perhaps one poor protestor in that Church.
     
  20. BobRyan

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    Kinda reminds me of something I read in a book called "The Faith Explained" by Leo Trese a commentary on the Baltimore Catechism after Vatican II - page 242 and 243 I think it is. [​IMG]

    (In fact I know it is). [​IMG]

    In Christ,

    Bob
     

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