The Trib and Rev 7:14?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by TCGreek, Mar 9, 2008.

  1. TCGreek

    TCGreek
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    1. Does Rev 7:14 teach that the church will go through the Trib, since John, when asked about the great number, said,

    "I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (emphasis mine)?

    2. If not the church, then who are all these people "from every nation, tribe, people and language" (v. 9).
     
  2. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Again, we request your version so we can check and see if you quoted the scripture properly.

    If you did quote the scripture properly, I don't like your version. Here is a version I do like:

    Rev 7:14 (KJV1611 Edition):
    And I said vnto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and haue washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lambe.

    These are the Church Age saints (mostly gentiles but a few million Messanic Jews) saints seen in heaven right after the Pre-tribulation Rapture Event (resurrection + rapture). The Church Age saints have escaped the great tribulation by being resurrected or raptured by Jesus prior to the revelation of the Antichrist right before the Tribulation starts. In Acts 6 we saw about what happened when the Lord came to get His Church Age saints and take them home with Him .

    Here is an essay I wrote earlier about the early part of the Tribulation Period. Recall Chapter 6 is on earth, Chapter 7 is in heaven.

    -----------------------------------------
    Revelation 6:10-11 (KJV1611):
    And they cried with a lowd voice, saying, How long,
    O Lord, holy and true, doest thou not iudge and
    auenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
    11 And white robes were giuen vnto euery one
    of them, and it was sayd vnto them, that they
    should rest yet for a little season, vntill
    their fellow seruants also, and their brethren
    that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

    Matthew 24:21-22 (KJV1611):
    For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not
    since the beginning of the world to this time,
    no, nor euer shall be.
    22 And except those dayes should be shortned,
    there should no flesh be saued: but for the elects sake,
    those dayes shall be shortned
    .

    These are parallel passages.
    Both show early in the tribulation day
    those born-again, mostly gentile, church age,
    Christian elect saints who were raptured/resurrected
    at the dawn of the tribulation day. They are talking
    to Jesus (praying face-to-face) about the Jewish
    Israeli elect saints who won't pray to God.
    ------------------------------------------------------
     
  3. TCGreek

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    I quoted the ESV, but the Greek text says the same thing: καὶ εἰρήκα αὐτῷ, Κύριε μου, σὺ οἶδας. καὶ εἶπεν μοι, Οὗτοι εἰσιν οἱ ἐρχόμενοι ἐκ τῆς θλίψεως τῆς μεγάλης καὶ ἔπλυναν τὰς στολὰς αὐτῶν καὶ ἐλεύκαναν αὐτὰς ἐν τῷ αἵματι τοῦ ἀρνίου.

    Try the TNIV:

    "I answered, "Sir, you know."

    And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."
     
  4. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
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    Tribulation

    There will be those who will never have to face the tribulation but one will stay another gone, but there will remain 144,000 to be used by God to save a multitude of people (who will be like the sands of the seashore) going through the great tribulation.

    After the tribulation those who have been beheaded for thier testimony of Jesus Christ and not worshipping the beast will be raised and reign with Christ on the Earth for a thousand years and the beast will be chanied in darkness. After this thousand years the beast will be released and will deceive the nation throughout the four corners of the Earth to bring them against the children of God.

    The people of God will not have to lift a hand, but God will destroy thier enemies by fire from heaven
     
  5. Outsider

    Outsider
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    I am not so sure that these are parallel passages unless the passage in Revelations is speaking of when the Romans tore down the temple in around 70 A.D. because that is what Jesus is talking about in Matthew.

    The disciples asked Him three questions (Mat 24:3). The first question they asked was "When shall these things be"? In verse two, Christ had just left the temple and as they were looking at the temple, He said: "Verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down".

    In those verses, He is still answering that question.
     
  6. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    IMHO Matthew 24:4-14 is signs of the Church Age (times of the Gentiles, Gentile age, age of Grace, etc). In fact, here is my timeline I find in the Bible several places. ALso three proofs from the scripture:

    -------------------------------
    Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

    0. church age continues <== you are here!
    1. rapture/resurrection event
    2. Tribulation time
    3. Second Advent of Jesus event
    4. literal MK=millennial kingdom
    5. new heaven & new earth

    The time line according to Matthew 24
    (Mount Olivet Discourse, also Matthew 25,
    Mark 13, Luke 21):

    0. church age continues <== you are here!
    Matthew 24:4-15

    1. rapture/resurrection event
    Matthew 24:31-44

    2. Tribulation time
    Matthew 24:21-28

    3. Second Advent of Jesus event
    Matthew 24:29-30)

    Not mentioned in Matthew 24:
    (4. literal MK=millennial kingdom)
    (5. new heaven & new earth)

    The time line according to Revelation:

    0. church age continues - Rev 2-3 <== you are here!
    1. rapture/resurrection event - Rev 4:1 (type)
    2. Tribulation time - Rev 4:2-19:10
    3. Second Advent of Jesus event - Rev 19:11-21
    4. literal MK=millennial kingdom - Rev 20:1-6
    5. new heaven & new earth - Rev 20:7-22:5

    The time line according to 2 Thessalonians 2:

    0. church age continues <== you are here!
    (implied, until the falling away)

    1. rapture/resurrection
    v.1 - gathering together unto him
    v.3 - falling away

    2. Tribulation time
    (time of the man of sin)

    3. Second Advent of Jesus event
    v.1 - coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
    v.8

    Not mentioned:
    (4. literal MK=millennial kingdom)
    (5. new heaven & new earth)

    BTW, I believed in the pre-tribulation rapture/resurrection
    in 1952 before i saw these three scriptures as pretrib.
    So even if you can prove all three of these scriptures
    in error, I'll still hope in the pre-tribulation rapture
    as will 80% of Baptists and 60% of kindred Christians.

    ---------------------------------------------
    Matthew 24:16-20 is a double fulfilled: 70AD and again in the Tribulation period.
     
    #6 Ed Edwards, Mar 9, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 9, 2008
  7. Ed Edwards

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    Pretribulation view of Matthew 24:

    Here is a pre-tribulation Rapture of the Church,
    pre-Millinnial Return of Christ,
    Futurist understanding of Matthew 24.

    In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus
    ask three questions:

    (in the order asked):
    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    3. What is the sign of the end of age?

    Jesus answers these questions in
    Matthew 24:4-44, then follows them with
    some parables in Matthew 24:45 through Matthew 25..

    Here are the answers of Jesus in the
    order the questions were asked:

    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    Matthew 24:4-14

    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    Matthew 24:15-30

    3. What is the sign of the end of age?
    Matthew 24:31-44

    Here is a summary of the answers
    in the order in which events will occur
    (not in the order in which the questions were asked):

    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    Soon, it was in 70AD

    3. What is the sign of the end of age?
    No signs preceeding the end of the age

    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    The Sign of His coming will be the
    Tribulation period.


    Recall the Greek language in which this
    Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) was written
    did not have Microsoft Word to do it with.
    So many ands, buts, and other connectors
    give the outline. 'Polysyndeton' is a retorical device that uses
    (in English) repeated connectors (usually 'and')
    instead of an outline. This is most noticable
    in the Bible in Genesis 1 and Matthew 24.
    I believe the major outline to be:

    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    Matthew 24:4-14

    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    Matthew 24:15-30

    3. What is the sign of the end of age?
    Matthew 24:31-44

    The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the
    Rapture/resurrection which ends the
    current church age (gentile age, age of grace,
    last days, etc.)

    Thus Matthew 24:4-14 describes all of the
    church age even up to this time.
    Matthew 24:4-14 describes the church age.
    The signs of Matthew 24:4-14 are signs
    that the church age continues
    NOT that the end is near..
     
  8. TCGreek

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    I'm down with you, Ed. :thumbs:
     
  9. skypair

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    I believe we see here the "foolish virgins" along with multitudes of Jews. Yes, that makes them "from every nation, tribe,..."

    But here's the point that also appears in Rev 2-3 and 2Thes 2:10-12: Part of the church is in unbelief if Christ. Would you agree? IOW, Does the RCC/Thyatira believe on Christ or on works? Do they have the "oil" or just their "lamps?"

    Read on in Mt 25:1-13 --- the wise tell them "go and buy." This is exactly what Christ tells Laodicea, Rev 3:18! And notice in both cases that there is "another chance" ("Afterward came also the other virgins..." -- "He that overcometh..."). They were not damned. But they had been through the tribulation or, as the verse you cite said, "great tribulation."

    BTW, I am not teaching a "split rapture." These saints you see are resurrected to earth postrib with the OT saints. The "throne" the "overcomers" sit on with Christ is an earthly throne. The door to heaven is closed to the foolish virgins BODILY but not spiritually which is what appears in Rev 7:9. Get it?

    skypair
     
  10. skypair

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    Chronologically, that would be a very challenging assertion since there are other saints in Rev 6:9 who appear before these and who appear to be martyred tribulation saints from the first 3 1/2 years.

    skypair
     
  11. skypair

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    Yes, but that does NOT mean that all 3 answers coincide timewise as you surmise. We're talking here about "sign of His coming" to earth (He hasn't come yet nor did He in 70 AD) and "end of the age" (church age and/or law age). Neither church nor law (the "clock" of Dan 9:26 stopped at "69 shebbuas" on that first Palm Sunday!).

    Outsider, the 69 weeks of years ended to the exact day on Palm Sunday, 30 AD. By what mechanism do you allow 33-40 years to go by before the 70th 7 years (Dan 9:24)?

    skypair
     
  12. skypair

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    Ed,

    I think that is going to be very helpful for outsider to study. :thumbs:

    skypair
     
  13. Outsider

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    It doesn't mean that all 3 coincide timewise, but it doesn't mean they don't. When I look at Matthew 24 & 25, this is what it tells me.

    1. When shall these things be? Mat 24:4-22
    2. What shall be the sign of thy coming? Mat 24:23-35; 36- Mat 25:30 tells us to always be ready.
    3. And of the end of the world? Mat 25:31-46

    Now, I do not claim to be a scholar on the book of Revelations. It is a popular subject and many try to do so. I will study the timeline you have provided (Brother Ed). But even before I do, I am not saying you and Skypair are wrong in what you are saying, I admitt openly I do not know. But in re-reading Matthew 24 and 25, I still say that verses 21 and 22 have nothing to do with the end times, other than it was an event that was to take place before Christ would return.

    We sometimes make things too complicated and harder than it really is. I think it is a need to prove we are well studied (For some people, not all).
    Jesus spoke plainly to plain men. They understood what He was saying at that time. They understood because they asked the questions and He answered them, I feel in order (The way they were asked) so they could better understand the answers.
     
  14. Ed Edwards

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    //They understood because they asked the questions and He answered them, I feel in order (The way they were asked) so they could better understand the answers.//

    However, the MoD (Mount Olivet Discourse) is recorded in Matthew 24 & 25, Mark 13, and Luke 17 & 21.

    three questions asked in Matthew 24 & 25
    two questions asked in Mark 13
    one question asked in Luke 17&21
    (in fact, Luke 17 isn't about the MoD)

    I understand Romans 10 better today (in 2008) as a Senior Citizen than I did back when I was an eight-year-old boy. But I understood enough in 1952 to get saved.
     
  15. TCGreek

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    So when a 1st century Jew unrolled his scroll of Matt 25:1-13, What meaning did it have for him? How did he understand it, or any othe kingdom parables for that matter?

    If the church at Thyatira is the RCC, What is the church at Sardis?
     
  16. Outsider

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    Amen. Praise God for that. But has the message in Romans 10 changed in meaning or do you have a deeper appreciaition for it now that you have grown as a Christian?
    I am not dismissing the fact that there can be a two fold meaning in scripture or that we sometimes will read scripture a certain way and in time, find out it truley has a different meaning.
    All I am saying, is that Mat 24:4-22 is Jesus revealing to the disciples about what to expect when the temple was going to be destroyed.
    That was their question and that was His answer to that question.
     
  17. skypair

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    First century Jew - nothing. It is a parable and not given to them to understand until they are saved, Mt 13:11.

    If they tried to understand, they would doubtless see it as the unbelievers of this age do -- that it speaks of the coming of Messiah and the judgment of their works (meanings have to be pretty simplistic when you can't really "see")

    Sardis is the Reform Church. "There are a few names ... which have not defiled their garments."

    skypair
     
  18. skypair

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    Then the judgments of Mt 25 should have immediately followed, no? So when, in your end times scenario, did the "man travelling to a far country" come back and judge his servants? Or "the Son of man come in His glory..." (Mt 25:31)??

    Try this: Mt 24:5-6 alone precede the destruction of the temple, "but the end is not yet."

    Mt 24:7 is "buildup" to the tribulation as 4:8 avers. Mt 24:9-31 is the tribulation divided in the middle by 24:15.

    Mt 24:32-51 answers the 3rd question -- end of the age. The signs of the church age ending are 24:32-43 followed by 25:1-13. The end of the age of law 7 years later is Mt 24:44-51 followed by 25:14-46.

    There's no "end of the world." There is the Millennial Kingdom of Christ (Rev 20:1-10) followed by the eternal kingdom of God (21-22:5).

    This is true, 1Cor 4:1. But when it comes to you, it's not "manna" in the bread but "manna" on the ground. YOU have to organize and mix it properly and I'm sure Ed and I will pray you do. :praying:

    skypair
     
  19. TCGreek

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    Skypair, How many years on our calender make up a church period and who decides that?

    What church period are we in right now (AD 2008)?
     
  20. skypair

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    Varies. I'm traeating this like a serious question, TC. LaHaye and Hinson in The Popular Encyclopedia of Bible Prophecy have it like this: Ephesus - 30-100, Smyrna - 100-313, Pergamum - 313-600, Thyatira - 600-1517, Sardis - 1517-1648, Philly - 1648-1900, Laodicea - 1900-present. They credit this particular chronology to Frucktenbaum (p. 52 -- I recommend this reference book for your study). Larkin has a similar, not quite so precise :laugh: chronology. (Ever heard of any of these guys?)

    As the authors say, it is easy to look back and see this. Apparently, according to p. 352, this approach was first suggested by Victorinus, Bishop of Pettau circa 313 AD.

    Here's the "dispensational view:" The churches are 1) historical (95-96 AD), 2) representative of churches during the church age, and 3) "prefiguring 7 aspects of the professing church which would successively rise..."

    Hang in there, TC! :jesus:

    skypair
     

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