The Trinity

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Martin Marprelate, Sep 24, 2015.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2010
    Messages:
    2,500
    Likes Received:
    454
    Having been discussing the Trinity with TrevorL on another thread, I thought it might be helpful to add some Scripture evidence that some may not have noticed. Most of what follows comes from The Trinity by E. H. Bickersteth, a 19th Century Bishop.

    The first text is a reference to God the father or to God generally; the second is a reference to Christ.

    1. Psalm 90:2. 'From everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.'
    Micah 5:2. 'Whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.'

    2. Psalm 93:2. 'Thy throne is established of old; thou art from everlasting.'
    Heb. 1:8. 'Unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever.'

    3. Isauah 44:6. 'I am the first and the last; and beside me there is no God.'
    Rev, 22:13. "I am the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.'

    4. Jer. 23:24. 'Do I not fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord.'
    Eph. 4:10. He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens that he might fill all things.'

    5. Deut. 31:8. 'The Lord, he it is that doth go before thee- He will be with thee; he will not fail thee.'
    Matt. 28:20. "Lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world."

    6. Mal. 3:6. "I am the LORD, I change not."
    Heb. 13:8. 'Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today and forever.'

    7. Job 11:7. "Canst thou by searching find out God?"
    Matt. 11:27. 'No man knoweth the Son, but the Father.'

    8. Rom. 11:33. 'O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! His ways past finding out.'
    Eph. 3:8. 'The unsearchable riches of Christ.'

    9. Prov. 16:4. 'The Lord has made all things for himself.'
    Col. 1:16. 'All things were created by him and for him.'

    10. Deut. 32:4. 'A God of truth and without iniquity.'
    John 14:6. 'I am....the truth.' Heb. 4:15. '...Without sin.'

    11. 1 Tim. 6:15. 'The King of kings and Lord of lords.'
    Rev. 19:16. 'King of kings and Lord of Lords.'

    12. Psalm 145:13. 'Thy kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and thy dominion endureth throughout all generations.'
    Dan. 7:14. 'His dominion is an everlasting dominion.....and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed,'

    13. Isaiah 40:10. Behold, the LORD God will come with a strong hand- His reward is with him.'
    Rev. 22:12. "Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me.....'

    14. Psalm 62:12. 'Thou renderest to every man according to his work.'
    Rev. 22:12. '....To give to every man according to his work.'

    15. Jer. 17:7. 'Blessed is the man who trusteth in the Lord and whose hope the Lord is.'
    Psalm 2:12. 'Blessed are they who put their hope in him.' Col. 1:27. 'Christ in you, the hope of glory.'



    Plenty more where those came from. :jesus:
     
    #1 Martin Marprelate, Sep 24, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 24, 2015
  2. Reformed

    Reformed
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2012
    Messages:
    1,227
    Likes Received:
    57
    Please tell me that the Arian heresy is not alive and well on this board.
     
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    John 8:58
    Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.

    Jesus declared that He and His Father are one. That makes Him God.

    John 10:30
    I and my Father are one.

    There are many passages in the Holy Bible that declare that Jesus Christ is Lord God Almighty. There are none that declare otherwise.

    Jesus created the world and all things. God Almighty created all things. Jesus is God Almighty.

    John 1:1-3,10-11,14
    1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    2The same was in the beginning with God.
    3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
    10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
    11He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
    14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    Colossians 1:14-17
    14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
    15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
    16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
    17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

    Genesis 1:1
    In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.


    Rev 14:7 “Worship Him who Created the heavens and the earth the seas and the springs of water”

    [FONT=&quot]
    Hebrews 3:4
    For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.[/FONT]
     
  4. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2010
    Messages:
    2,500
    Likes Received:
    454
    Here are a few more. Reference to God the father first, and to Christ second:

    1 Kings 8:39. Thou, even thou only, knowest the hearts of all the children of men.'
    Rev. 3:23. "All the churches shall know that I am he which searchest the reins and the hearts."

    2. Psalm 103:19. 'His kingdom ruleth over all.'
    Acts 10:36. 'He is Lord of all.'

    3. Zech. 14:9. 'The LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day there shall be one Lord and his name one.'
    1 Cor. 8:6. 'To us there is but....... one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.'

    4. Psalm 83:18. 'Thou whose name alone is Jehovah, art the most high over all the earth.'
    Phil. 2:9. 'God hath given him a name which is above every name.....'
    Col. 1:18. 'That in all things he might have the pre-eminence.'

    5. Rom. 12:19. 'Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.'
    2 Thes. 1:7-8. 'Taking vengeance on them that know not the Lord.'

    6. Rom. 2:5. 'The day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgement of God.'
    Rev. 6:16-17. '...And from the wrath of the Lamb: for the great day of his wrath has come; and who shall be able to stand?'

    7. Isaiah 40:18. 'To whom then will ye liken God?'
    Col. 1:15. 'The image of the invisible God.'
    Heb 1:3. 'The express image of his person.'

    8. John 17:3. "Thee, the only true God."
    1 John 5:20. '.....His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.'

    9. Psalm 119:28. 'Strengthen thou me according to thy word.'
    Phil. 4:13. 'I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me.'

    10. Psalm 39:7. 'Lord, my hope is in thee.'
    1 Tim. 1:1. 'Jesus Christ, which is our hope.'

    11. Psalm 91:4. 'He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust.'
    12. Matt. 23:37. "How often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings."

    13. Isaiah 43:11. 'I, even I am Jehovah; and beside me there is no Saviour.'
    Matt. 1:21. 'Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.'

    14. '.... beside me there is no Saviour.'
    1 Tim. 1:15. 'Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners.'

    15. '.... beside me there is no Saviour.'
    Acts 15:11. 'We believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved.'

    16. '..... beside me there is no Saviour.'
    Heb. 5:9. 'He became the Author of salvation unto all that obey him.'

    17. '...... beside me there is no Saviour.'
    Heb. 7:25. 'He is able to save them to the uttermost that come unto God through him.'

    18. '..... beside me there is no Saviour.'
    1 Thes. 1:10. 'Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.'

    19. '..... beside me there is no Saviour.'
    2 Peter 3:18. 'Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.'

    20. '..... beside me there is no Saviour.'
    Acts 4:12. 'Neither is there salvation in any other; for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.'

    Plenty more to come! :thumbs:
     
  5. TrevorL

    TrevorL
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2005
    Messages:
    515
    Likes Received:
    0
    Greetings BobRyan and Martin,
    John 10:30,36 (KJV): 30 I and my Father are one. 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
    Jesus does not claim that he is God, or that he is God the Son, but that God is His Father. There is only one God the Father and Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

    These all prove that Jesus is the Son of God.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
     
    #5 TrevorL, Sep 25, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 25, 2015
  6. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2010
    Messages:
    2,500
    Likes Received:
    454
    Isaiah 9:6. 'And His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of peace.'

    This thread is to show that the Divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ does not rest upon a few proof texts, but is in the warp and woof of the every part of the Bible. Jesus is Jehovah. For example, there is no portion of the Lord's prayer that cannot be properly addressed to the Lord Jesus.

    'Our Father which art in heaven.
    Isaiah 9:6. 'Everlasting Father.' John 3:13. 'The Son of man which is in heaven.'

    'Hallowed be thy name.'
    2 Thes. 1:12. 'That the name of our Lord may be glorified.'

    'Thy kingdom come.'

    2 Peter 1:11. The everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.'

    'Thy will be done on earth.'

    Col. 3:24. 'Ye serve the Lord Christ.'

    'As it is in heaven.'

    1 Peter 3:22. 'Jesus Christ is gone into heaven....angels and authorities and powers being made subject to him.'

    Give us this day our daily bread.'

    Isaiah 11:11. 'He shall feed his flock like a shepherd.'

    'Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors.'

    Col. 3:13. 'Forgiving one another: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.'

    'And lead us not into temptation.'

    John 10:3, 27. 'He leadeth them out. My sheep.....follow me.'

    'But deliver us from evil.'

    Gal. 1:4. 'Jesus Christ, who gave himself for our sins that he might deliver us from this present evil world.'

    'For thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory, for ever and ever, Amen.

    Rev. 11:15. 'He shall reign forever. Rev. 1:6. 'To him be glory and dominion for ever and ever.'
     
  7. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2010
    Messages:
    2,500
    Likes Received:
    454
    Just a few more:

    1. Isaiah 43:25. I, even I, am he that blotteth out they transgressions for mine own sake.'
    1 John 1:7. 'The blood of Jesus Christ his son cleanseth us from all sin.' Heb. 1:3. 'When he had by himself purged our sins.'

    2. Exod. 34:7. '.....Forgiving iniquity.
    Mark 2:5. "Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.'

    3. Isaiah 25:4. 'Thou hast been....a refuge from the storm. a shadow from the heat.'
    Isaiah 32:2. 'A man shall be...a covert from the tempest....as the shadow of a great rock in a weary land.'

    4. Psalm 107:29. 'He maketh the storm a calm, so that the waves thereof are still.'
    Matt. 8:26. 'He arose and rebuked the winds and sea; and there was a great calm.'

    5. 1 John 5:3. 'This is the love of God, that we keep his commandments.'
    John 14:15. "If ye love me, keep my commandments.'

    6. Mal. 1:6. 'If I be a master, where is my fear?'
    Matt. 23:8, 10. 'One is your Master, even Christ.'

    7. Isaiah 54:5. 'Thy maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name.'
    John 3:29. 'He that hath the bride is the bridegroom.' Rev. 21:9. 'the Bride, the Lamb's wife.'

    8. Prov. 3:12. 'Whom the LORD loveth, he correcteth.'
    Rev. 3:19. 'As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten.'

    9. 1 Cor. 15:28. 'That God may be all in all.'
    Col. 3:11. 'Christ, all and in all.'

    10. Gal. 1:4-5. 'God and our Father: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen'
    2 Peter 3:18. 'Our Lord and saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
     
  8. Darrell C

    Darrell C
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2010
    Messages:
    6,249
    Likes Received:
    118
    Hello Trevor, not sure if anyone has added these, so will just enter them at this time and apologies if it has already been covered:


    Isaiah 44:6

    King James Version (KJV)

    6 Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.



    Isaiah 48:12

    King James Version (KJV)

    12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.


    Revelation 1:8, 10-11, 17-18

    King James Version (KJV)

    8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.


    10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

    11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.


    17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

    18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.




    God calls Himself the First and the Last.

    Christ calls Himself the First and the Last.

    "Alpha and Omega" means...the first and the last.

    Beside Him there is no other.

    And we see that Christ is in view for He is the One Who liveth, and was dead; and, behold, is alive for evermore.

    And it He that we await...


    Revelation 22:12-13

    King James Version (KJV)

    12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

    13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.




    God bless.
     
    #8 Darrell C, Sep 25, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 25, 2015
  9. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2015
    Messages:
    2,781
    Likes Received:
    493
    Are you saying Jesus is the Son of God, yet not God? If so, that view is teetering on modalism.

    That was the view I held a few years ago, by the way. Thankfully, God pulled me out of that muck and mire.
     
  10. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2001
    Messages:
    6,179
    Likes Received:
    226
    I believe in the Eternal Sonship Of The Son of God... Jesus Christ!... You took a quote from the New Testament let me in kind post one from the Old... Genesis...

    1:26 And God said, Let US make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

    1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

    Tell me who is the US?... Brother Glen
     
  11. TrevorL

    TrevorL
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2005
    Messages:
    515
    Likes Received:
    0
    Greetings SovereignGrace, Glen (tyndale1946) and Greetings again Martin (Part 1 of 2),
    I believe that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and yet not God as we would use the term in English. I believe that there is only one God the Father. My two lists below mainly addressed to Martin are some of the basis of my beliefs.
    I do not believe that Genesis 1:26 “US” is speaking of the Trinity, but God the Father discussing and inviting the Angels to cooperate in the creation of man. Psalm 8 confirms this by saying that man was made a little lower than the angels.


    I feel that the various lists that you (Martin) supplied of parallel references, showing the character and attributes of God alongside the character and attributes of Jesus may at first seem overwhelming, and possibly to a non-Trinitarian almost intimidating. But if we comprehend that Jesus was to destined be and is the greatest manifestation or revealing of God, His Father, the parallel quotes are very significant, revealing that Jesus is the Son of God. There are many Scriptures that speak of this final and greatest revelation of God through His Son, but the following is Paul’s summary:.
    Hebrews 1:1-2: 1God, having of old time spoken unto the fathers in the prophets by divers portions and in divers manners, 2hath at the end of these days spoken unto us in his Son
    There are a number of parallel ideas above, but there is no matching phrase to “by divers portions and in divers manners”. This missing phrase is the subject of the rest of Paul’s Letter to the Hebrews, showing that the greatest and complete revelation of God is in and through His Son.

    Far from supporting the Trinity, the following lists of references show that the Scriptures simply and clearly teach that there is One God the Father, and that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Neither list is comprehensive.

    The first list demonstrates that the Scriptures define the One God as the Father and this One God is separate from the Lord Jesus Christ.
    Matthew 6:9 (KJV): After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
    1 Corinthians 8:6 (KJV): But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
    2 Corinthians 1:2 (KJV): Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
    Galatians 1:1 (KJV): Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)
    Galatians 1:3 (KJV): Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,
    Ephesians 1:2 (KJV): Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
    Philippians 1:2 (KJV): Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
    Colossians 1:2 (KJV): To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
    Philemon 3 (KJV): Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
    1 Thessalonians 1:1 (KJV): Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
    2 Thessalonians 1:2 (KJV): Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
    1 Timothy 1:2 (KJV): Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.
    Titus 1:4 (KJV): To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.
    1 Peter 1:3 (KJV): Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
    2 John 3 (KJV): Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

    Could it be said that Paul, Peter and John were here teaching the Trinity? If you were a member of one of these communities (Gk.Ekklesias) would you feel that such phrases are code-words for the Trinity?

    Kind regards
    Trevor
     
  12. TrevorL

    TrevorL
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2005
    Messages:
    515
    Likes Received:
    0
    Greetings again Martin (Part 2 of 2),

    Also in this second list, the Bible states in simple and clear terms that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and the term God the Son is never found in the Scriptures. The following could be sufficient as representative of the many:
    Luke 1:35 (KJV): And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
    John 10:35-36 (KJV): 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
    John 17:1-3 (KJV): 1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
    John 20:30-31 (KJV): 30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
    Romans 1:1-4 (KJV): 1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:


    Could you please explain where in the Acts of the Apostles is the Trinity taught. Here is Peter’s teaching on the Day of Pentecost:
    Acts 2:22-24 (KJV): 22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

    Acts 2:34-36 (KJV): 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.


    Also I am interested if in Baptist Bible Classes and other means of teaching, are the titles that Jesus received such as "Lord" and Christ" clearly taught and understood in all their significance? Or is the atmosphere so charged with claims about Jesus being God the Son, that these titles fade into oblivion? In other words how do you explain Acts 2:34-36? Also do the Baptists really believe that Jesus was a MAN, and still is a MAN, 1 Timothy 2:5?



    Kind regards
    Trevor
     
  13. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2001
    Messages:
    6,179
    Likes Received:
    226
    I do not believe that Genesis 1:26 “US” is speaking of the Trinity, but God the Father discussing and inviting the Angels to cooperate in the creation of man. Psalm 8 confirms this by saying that man was made a little lower than the angels.

    You need to reread Psalms 8... The man is question was Jesus Christ who by his Divinity clothed himself in Sinless Humanity and was made a little lower than the Angels... Who was crowned with glory and honor and all things put under his feet?... Jesus Christ!... Show me one scripture where any Angel helped God in creation?... It's not there but the Trinity is even though you deny it... Brother Glen
     
  14. TrevorL

    TrevorL
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2005
    Messages:
    515
    Likes Received:
    0
    Greetings again Glen (tyndale1946),

    I appreciate your relevant response. I enjoy reading Psalm 8 as it has been one of my favourite Psalms for many years. The first impression of Psalm 8 is that it is speaking of the Adamic Creation. There is also a strong echo in the following:
    Genesis 1:28 (KJV): And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
    Psalm 8:6-8 (KJV): 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet: 7 All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field; 8 The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas.


    So the terms and language applied to Adam and Eve are taken up in Psalm 8, but a careful examination of Psalm 8 reveals that there are elements of the fall because there is mention of enmity, and this enmity occurred as a result of the fall.
    Genesis 3:15 (KJV): And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
    Psalm 8:2 (KJV): Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.


    So much to set Psalm 8 in its proper context. What I would like to suggest is that Psalm 8 firstly summarises Genesis 1:26-28 and then applies these terms to the Lord Jesus Christ. In other words Adam and Eve were “made a little lower than the Angels”, and this is also the phrase that Paul in Hebrews 2 applies to the Lord Jesus Christ, regarding his conception, birth and humanity, being subject to death.

    Where I would disagree with you is your addition of Trinitarian and other concepts in your explanation.
    Psalm 8 does not say this, but this is your interpretation adding detail and coloured with Trinitarian concepts. Your claim that Jesus was clothed with “Sinless Humanity” is not stated in Scripture. Your phrase seems steeped in “Original Sin” theology. Jesus was born with Mary as his mother. He inherited the effects of Adam’s transgression and was subject to death. He came to conquer sin and all its effects and as a result of his victory over sin, and because of the Father’s love to him (not the Father’s wrath as per pagan philosophy and ritual) the grave could not hold him.

    Psalm 8:1 (KJV): O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens.
    Psalm 8:5 (KJV): For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

    The subject of the Praise in v1 is “O LORD our Lord”, that is Yahweh, God the Father, the one God of Heaven and Earth. Then in v5 David addresses Yahweh again when he says “thou hast made him a little lower than the angels”. This is speaking of the creation of Jesus in the womb of Mary, when God is the father and Mary the mother Luke 1:35.

    What is not obvious is that the term “angels” is not angels in the Hebrew, but “Elohim” and thus there is a distinction between Yahweh, the One God and Elohim which is a plural word often used as a collective term for Angels, and other occasions for the Judges who represented God. The plural in Genesis 1:26 is God the Father and the Angels because of this very distinction here in Psalm 8:5 between Yahweh and Elohim. The term Elohim when understood in Genesis 1-3 helps in understanding the interaction of Adam and Eve with these Divine representatives, the Angels. God the Father did not walk in the Garden in the evening when Adam and Eve had sinned.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
     
    #14 TrevorL, Sep 26, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 26, 2015
  15. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2015
    Messages:
    2,781
    Likes Received:
    493
    TrevorL,

    Thank you for you posting. What you are espousing is teetering upon modalism, Arianism, and quite possibly, Christadelphianism, I am not saying you are of those ilks, but the view you are expressing come close to those views as they came across to me. Jesus has always been with the Father, and though He is the Son of God, He is also God.

    In Psalms 8 is referencing Christ when He came in the likeness of sinful flesh, yet He was, and ever will be, sinless. He was made a little lower than the angels in that He was born to die for sin and sinners. The Hebrew writer reiterates it in chapter two.

    No angel assisted God when He spoke this world into existence. The JW's believe that the Arch Angel Michael is Jesus. But no angel helped God make anything.
     
  16. steaver

    steaver
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    9,005
    Likes Received:
    82
    Even if one wants to include humanity in being made lower than the Angels, it still says nowhere that angels helped God create anything. So Trevor you are hanging your doctrine on something totally made up for the sake of your position. The "Us" is God alone. Now you figure out how God calls Himself in the plural.
     
  17. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2010
    Messages:
    2,500
    Likes Received:
    454
    That the Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God is not at issue between us.

    What I have shown in these texts is that the same actions, the same power, the same glory that are attributed to the Father are also attributed to the Son. Therefore the Lord Jesus Christ is very God, and this is explicitly stated in various Scriptures (eg. John 1:1; 20:28; Rom. 9:5; Titus 2:13; Heb. 1:8; 2 Peter 1:1. Compare Rev. 5:8-12 with 19:10).

    This fact permeates all the Scriptures as I have shown, and only the most stubborn blindness could possibly deny it, which is why it has been an article of faith for the Church right from the very earliest times.
     
    #17 Martin Marprelate, Sep 26, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 26, 2015
  18. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2015
    Messages:
    2,781
    Likes Received:
    493
    Oui, Oui, Monsieur. :applause:
     
  19. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2010
    Messages:
    2,500
    Likes Received:
    454
    This is one of the most amazing things about your posts.
    How is it that the most hostile and bigoted Pharisees knew exactly what our Lord was saying (John 8:59; 10:31-33), and yet you don't?

    just another point: In Matt. 4:10 and Luke 4:8, our Lord says (quoting Deut. 6:13), "You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only shall you serve."
    The Greek word used is proskuneo.

    Yet the Lord Jesus receives worship from
    The magi (Matt. 2:8, 11),
    A leper (Matt. 8:2),
    The ruler (Matt. 9:18),
    The possessed (Mark 5:6),
    The disciples after the storm (Matt. 14:33),
    The man born blind (John 9:38),
    The woman of Tyre (Matt. 15:25),
    The mother of James and John (Matt. 20:20),
    The women and disciples (Matt. 28:9, 17),
    The disciples as He ascended (Luke 24:52),
    All the angels (Heb. 1:6).
    The verb proskuneo is used in each case. In no case did our Lord make any objection. Yet saintly or angelic worship is refused in Rev. 19:10 and 22:8-9.

    Oh yes, and I just came upon this:

    Micah 4:5. '(For all people will walk every one in the name of his god) and we will walk in the name of the LORD our God' (LXX en onomati kupiou theou hemon).
    Col. 3:17. And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus' (en onomati kupiou Iesou).

    Jesus is the LORD (kupios).
     
    #19 Martin Marprelate, Sep 26, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 26, 2015
  20. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    38,303
    Likes Received:
    784
    Another example of weird doctrines that show up on this board.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

Loading...