The Trouble With Arminiamism and Calvinism

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by gb93433, May 24, 2009.

  1. gb93433

    gb93433
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    I have come to the conclusion that many of the words of calvinists are right but they are unable to translate that to American society and its way of thinking in such a way that Americans can understand God the way the Jews did. It seems that calvinists tend to treat passages from a modern day Greek/American understanding rather than from the historical Jewish understanding. That was clearly demonstrated awhile back someone posted about God creating evil. A number of calvinists posted that God could not possibly create evil. From a Jewish historical context God did create evil but a number failed to see that from the historical Jewish mindset for whom those passages were written to. Rather they saw God creating good and evil as a dichotomy and impossible to understand. Yet scripture teaches that God did create good and evil. It is not an either/or situation but both.

    I believe the same trouble is in both camps among calvinists and arminianists.
     
  2. saturneptune

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    Your last statement is right on. The fact is God is sovereign and there is an element of free will as God allows. The bottom line is that despite all these advanced degrees, all minds are still human, flawed, and limited in understanding compared to anything approaching God. In this life, all the two camps you mention is express opinions, and opinions are not Biblical truth.
     
  3. historyb

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  4. Rippon

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    That's so untrue. Do you also think Calvinistic preachers in other lands have the same weakness?

    Your finite understanding is flawed. You are more extreme than many hyper-Calvinists who do not believe that God has created evil. Your belief is heretical. And your understanding is weakened by your preference for KJV-speak. What you need to see is that God creates calamity -- He brings harm to many when He sees fit -- The Lord most certainly did not create evil.Do you promote this junk in your church?!

    Further, God did not "create" good. It's not an entity -- it's not matter. God IS good. Everything He does is good and perfect. Therefore the Lord can't be charged with creating evil! Return to orthodoxy.
     
  5. gb93433

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    While I think you have some good points I do not see one of them as stemming from scripture interpreted in light of its historical context but rather from your own rationalistic point of view. The same word used for calamity in the MT is also the same word used for evil in another context. I would agree with you if all I looked at was what a Greek mindset would think and see. The problem is that most of the Bible was not written to or for those with a Greek mindset. Most of scripture was written to the Jews. Most of the Bible uses Jewish phraseology and not Greek phraseology. So those words and phrases must be interpreted in light of their historical context and meaning which was in a Jewish context and culture.

    So in an effort to let you explain yourself better how would you interpret the following verses?

    1Sam 16:14-16, “Now the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord terrorized him. Saul's servants then said to him, "Behold now, an evil spirit from God is terrorizing you. "Let our lord now command your servants who are before you. Let them seek a man who is a skillful player on the harp; and it shall come about when the evil spirit from God is on you, that he shall play the harp with his hand, and you will be well."

    1Sam 16:23 So it came about whenever the evil spirit from God came to Saul, David would take the harp and play it with his hand; and Saul would be refreshed and be well, and the evil spirit would depart from him.

    1Sam 18:10, “Now it came about on the next day that an evil spirit from God came mightily upon Saul, and he raved in the midst of the house, while David was playing the harp with his hand, as usual; and a spear was in Saul's hand.”

    1Sam 19:9, “Now there was an evil spirit from the Lord on Saul as he was sitting in his house with his spear in his hand, and David was playing the harp with his hand.”

    If God did not create good then what or where is the origin of good and evil outside of God? You wrote, “Everything He does is good and perfect.” What is “everything”?
     
  6. Robert Snow

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    This is funny coming from one who believes as you do. It's like the pot calling the kettle black. :laugh:
     
  7. Rippon

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    So you like to use a cliche every now and then in lieu of a post with substance.

    Therefore you think it is perfectly orthodox to believe that God has created evil? You think my take is so funny -- and hence wrong. Are there any more of your kind at your church who hold that God has created evil?
     
  8. saturneptune

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    Why don't you read Scripture before calling names? Try Isaiah 45:7 for starters. (KJV). This is another perfect example of equating opinion (wrong at that) with Biblical truth.
     
  9. Jkdbuck76

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    [​IMG]

    "That's right!"
     
  10. Rippon

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    The wording of the KJV is not sacrosanct. I have already said that the word "evil" used by the KJV revisers meant disaster or calamity.

    TNIV : I bring prosperity and create disaster

    MLB : I make peace and create calamity

    REB : author alike of wellbeing and woe

    NJB : I make well-being, and I create disaster

    HCSB : I make success and create disaster

    NRSV : I make weal and create woe

    Conclusion? You're wrong.
     
  11. Rippon

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    I know you were attemping humor, but you failed. Would you rather be unorthodox, this is -- heterodox? In which camp do you wish to reside?
     
  12. gb93433

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    It is not a matter of your German rationalistic approach to the historical context aimed at the correct interpretation, but of studying your Bible in light of its historical context well enough to know what God has already done. Your approach and explanation would lead a non-believer who reads this to believe that you do not believe your Bible and ignores what scripture teaches.

    In an effort to allow you to explain yourself I am waiting for an answer to your interpretation of those verses I quoted in post #5.
     
  13. Robert Snow

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    I was not referring to God creating evil. I was talking about you calling another brother in Christ's beliefs heretical.

    I don't think God created evil because I don't think evil is something that is created. Evil is disobedience to God which God allows man to do.
     
  14. saturneptune

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    No, the conclusion is that you use translations and wording to suit your thought processes. Your opinion is obviously flawed, and is far removed from Scripture.

    Even if I agreed with all that you are saying, the second you called a brother in Christ a heretic, I lost all respect for you.
     
    #14 saturneptune, May 25, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: May 25, 2009
  15. gb93433

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    When I was many years younger I would have easily agreed with you and avoided someone who thought as I do now. A few years ago I was challenged by a well respected Southern Baptist seminary professor who is most likely the best NT studies professor the SBC has seen in over 50 years. He is not a calvinists and has nothing to do with arminianism or calvinism and sees all of them as wrong. After doing a lot of study using a concordance and several other books I came ot the conclusion as I do now that the Jews viewed God very differently than we do and that is the reason why we cannot comprehend those verses very well and cannot comprehend God as creating or having anything to do with evil. We compartmentalize everything including God, and the Jews did not.
     
  16. Jerome

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    "Why, he is the standard of orthodoxy, and he judges everybody! . . . . He may know the doctrine, but he does not understand it; or else he would know that the doctrines of grace lead us to seek the grace of the doctrines;" ---Charles Spurgeon

    "You are very orthodox. Yes, but unless the doctrines of grace have brought to your soul the grace of the doctrines, and you have tasted and handled them, what do you know about them? Nothing certainly to remember." ---Charles Spurgeon

    "They . . . even judge themselves to be sound in the faith, while they are rotten in life. We need the grace of the doctrines as much as the doctrines of grace," ---Charles Spurgeon
     
    #16 Jerome, May 25, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: May 25, 2009
  17. zrs6v4

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    All bickering aside, I was pondering on this a few months back. This is interesting athough I dont necessarily take this position. Let me get this straight-

    You are saying that since God is eternal and God is good, then good is eternal. Because good is eternal so is evil, therefore good and evil are not creations but simply something else (I cant think of the word that would describe them). Evil never was in existence because God was always good, but evil came when creation disobeyed and acted apart from God who is alone good.

    Rippon please explain further, thanks
     
  18. saturneptune

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    Rippon,
    Since you and Mr Snow believe evil or good was not created, then why are you arguing with him? Do you just like to hear yourself talk?
     
  19. Robert Snow

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    If you took the time to read the post, you would know that I was not commenting on good vs evil.

    Do you comment on things that don't involve you just to spend time posting?
     
  20. saturneptune

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    .
    This is an open thread, and open to comment on anything said. No one said you were commenting on good vs evil. The point is, to put it in simple terms so you can understand, is that both of you have such a flawed grasp of creation, good and evil, yet you still argue with each other like you are on the opposite side. I have seen some wild concepts, but the concept that God did not create something takes the cake. Read Isaiah 45:7, KJV to make it clear to you. Do you also believe in the tooth fairy?
     

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