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The Trouble With Arminiamism and Calvinism

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by gb93433, May 24, 2009.

  1. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    The problem you have here is your non specific use of the word "evil". Evil can be used in a number of contexts. We know that hell was created for Satan and his angels. That is in fact an evil. But God did not create the evil we understand as rebellion against God. God did not create murder, stealing, idol worship, child molestation, rape, other gods etc.
     
  2. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    Sorry saturnneptune, but most of those in Christianity do not hold to the position that God 'created' evil. Isaiah 45:7 does not give you any leverage either, KJV or not because you seem to NOT be looking at what it is stating.
    The opposite of light is dark, however the opposite of peace is not evil. The scripture of Isa 45:7 is showing contrast and the opposite of peace is calamity. Peace is when there is only rest and safety, however calmity is being the opposite is when there is no rest but turmoil and fear. These are general events in the lives of men or better they are terms which describe circumstances that involve men. Thus Just as God makes both light and dark (observable events) upon man so He brings peace and calmity into the lives of men.
     
    #22 Allan, May 26, 2009
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  3. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    I have thought about what you said, and stand corrected. I guess I never gave much thought to this specific question, and when there are differences in versions, I rely on the KJV too much. Here is a good article I read.


    Did God Create Evil - Does the Bible Say So?
    by Rich Deem
    Introduction One of the most common reasons skeptics reject the existence of God is due to the presence of evil in this universe. They reason that a perfect God would not create a universe in which evil exists. Skeptics claim that since God created everything that God must have also created evil. They even cite Bible verses, such as:

    I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7, KJV)
    Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? (Amos 3:6, KJV)
    Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good? (Lamentations 3:38)
    However, evil is not really a created thing. You can't see, touch, feel, smell or hear evil. It is not one of the fundamental forces of physics, nor does it consist of matter, energy, or the spatial dimensions of the universe. Still, skeptics like to claim that God created evil and cite the Bible to "prove" their point. The Bible is quite clear that God is not the author of evil and insists that He is incapable of doing so.1

    Love that King James translation!Skeptics love the KJV so much, one would think that they were still back in medieval England. Use of this translation is problematic these days, since it uses an archaic version of modern English, which doesn't necessarily mean the same things today as when it was translated over 400 years ago. In addition, the KJV was produced using a limited number of medieval manuscripts that did not represent the earliest Alexandrian set of manuscripts.

    What do the modern translations say?

    The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these. (Isaiah 45:7, NASB)
    I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7, NIV)
    Isaiah 45:7 contrasts opposites. Darkness is the opposite of light. However, evil is not the opposite of peace. The Hebrew word translated "peace" is shâlôm,2 which has many meanings, mostly related to the well being of individuals. Râ‛âh,3 the Hebrew word translated "evil" in the KJV often refers to adversity or calamity. There are two forms of the word. Strong's H7451a most often refers to moral evil, whereas Strong's H7451b (the form used here) most often refers to calamity or distress. Obviously, "calamity" is a better antonym of "peace" than "evil."

    Amos 3:6

    If a trumpet is blown in a city will not the people tremble? If a calamity occurs in a city has not the LORD done it? (Amos 3:6, NASB)
    When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble? When disaster comes to a city, has not the LORD caused it? (Amos 3:6, NIV)
    Likewise, Amos 3:6 uses the same word, râ‛âh, referring to calamity or disaster. the context (a disaster happening to a city) does not refer to moral evil.

    Lamentations 3:38

    Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both calamities and good things come? (Lamentations 3:38, NIV)
    Is it not from the mouth of the Most High That both good and ill go forth? (Lamentations 3:38, NASB)
    The King James Version of Lamentations 3:38 seems to suggest that God speaks both good and evil. However, if one reads the verse in context, the preceding verses indicate that God does not do or approve of evil.4 The verse following indicates that people should not complain in view of their sins.5 What the verse really is saying that God decrees times of good things and times of judgment. Lamentations was written by Jeremiah during a time of judgment, when Judah had gone off into exile. Jeremiah was chosen by God to be the prophet to tell Judah to reform or be judged. The people did not believe Jeremiah, and, therefore, fell under God's judgment. In Lamentations 3:38, the word translated "good" is ṭôb (Strong's H2896).6 The word usually refers to good things5 as opposed to bad things. Again, râ‛âh3 does not refer to moral evil, but calamities, in this verse. Likewise, the Bible commentaries indicate that the verse refers to God's judgment based upon people's sin.7

    Conclusion God is not the author of evil.8 However, God does reward and punish on the basis of good and bad behavior. Therefore, God does bring judgment and calamity (either directly or through human authorities) on those who rebel.9 God will ultimately judge all people, since rebels will not be allowed in the new, perfect creation.
     
  4. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    Despite my last post, my words to you Mr Rippon stand. Calling people heretic for such things is so far out of bounds I fail to understand why you are stil here.
     
  5. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    Well at least I got something right for a change :)
    Personally I'm not against the KJV and I use it quite often when preaching and teaching people to study, but yes one can lean to heavily on a translation no matter what it is.

    However, even in the KJV we must remember two things. 1. Some words they use we understand differently so we must look back on what they 'meant'.
    And 2. No matter what version - context :)

    I respect you, your views (even if we sometimes disagree :) ), and you attitude in your postings - keep it up.
     
    #25 Allan, May 26, 2009
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  6. Bob Alkire

    Bob Alkire New Member

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    I'm in agreement with Allen on this. I don't post much on any Calvinism debate due to how it gets. I recall when we could have a debate on it and move on without all the heat.

    I respect you, Allen and saturneptune on this, your action on this has shown me two Christians I would love to see or spend time with even if I agreed or disagree with some of your views.
     
  7. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    See post #5
     
  8. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    While the article did address those verses it did not address the multiple uses of that same word. It is much like saying that a bat is only an animal.

    An example of a few are:

    1Sam 16:14-16, “Now the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord terrorized him. Saul's servants then said to him, "Behold now, an evil spirit from God is terrorizing you. "Let our lord now command your servants who are before you. Let them seek a man who is a skillful player on the harp; and it shall come about when the evil spirit from God is on you, that he shall play the harp with his hand, and you will be well."

    1Sam 16:23 So it came about whenever the evil spirit from God came to Saul, David would take the harp and play it with his hand; and Saul would be refreshed and be well, and the evil spirit would depart from him.

    1Sam 18:10, “Now it came about on the next day that an evil spirit from God came mightily upon Saul, and he raved in the midst of the house, while David was playing the harp with his hand, as usual; and a spear was in Saul's hand.”

    1Sam 19:9, “Now there was an evil spirit from the Lord on Saul as he was sitting in his house with his spear in his hand, and David was playing the harp with his hand.”


    Evil In The OT
    “The phenomenon and problem of evil can be described as follows: “Evil, understood in the broadest sense, refers to everything that is bad. It thus includes—to use a classical distinction—both ‘physical’ evil, directly due to nature, and “moral” evil, due to human volition; to these, the modern definition of the problem adds ‘social’ or ‘structural’ evil, the injustice that falls between necessity and approbation. The thing itself—whether physical, moral, or social—has always eluded the grasp of Western metaphysics, and for good reason: its essence has been impossible to define. Of course the world is full of . . . ‘evil.’ In itself however, it appears to be nothing, for it cannot be understood in isolation. There is no such thing as the evil one, nor is there an element of the world that is evil wither inherently or even indirectly. But of course there is always someone or something that is evil. Thus evil appears in the predicate, as an attribute. Its domain is events, actions, and their effects. Possibly this is why it has repeatedly eluded ontological philosophy. ‘Evil is a relational concept: its business is with action and suffering, with human and social interaction. We perceive as evil whatever threatens us, brings disorder, destroys life, turns change into catastrophe. It is, at bottom, an attack on existence and on life. . . . It tends toward death” (TDOT Vol. XIII p. 567-568).


     
    #28 gb93433, May 26, 2009
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  9. Robert Snow

    Robert Snow New Member

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    If you would simply look at the quote I was commenting on you would know what I was talking about.

    I guess neither of us have your superior intellect required to understand the bible. One key thing is that we were arguing with each other, not with you. Maybe you should stay out of another person's argument.


    Evidently it is you who don't understand exactly what evil is. I will restate, for the slow to understand: God did not created evil. Even Satan was not created evil. Evil was found in him when he rebelled against God.
     
  10. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Has nothing to do with what I posted. The need for clarification is yours.
     
  11. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    If you had read the post to Allen above from me, you would see that I stood corrected. If you did read it and posted the above anyhow, well, it says more about you than me. I do believe you should reconcile with Mr Rippon, as you two seem to have lots in common.
     
  12. Robert Snow

    Robert Snow New Member

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    I don't see that Rippon and I have that much in common. He is a devout Calvinist and I abhor Calvinism.
     
  13. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    The context of Isaiah 7 concerns Cyrus the King of Persia as an instrument of God's retribution against idolatry.

    Isaiah 45:16 They shall be ashamed, and also confounded, all of them: they shall go to confusion together that are makers of idols.​

    This divine retribution is the context of Isaiah 45 from which the definition of the evil created by God is given.​

    God does not/cannot create evil in the context of sin.​

    James 1
    13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
    14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
    15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.​

    The ultimate responsibilty of the creation of moral evil in the context of sin is the devil.​

    1 John 3
    8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

    While our Father is not the author/creator of sin, the ultimate responsibility of retribution for those who have created evil or put their stamp of approval on that evil comes forth from His sovereignty:​

    Against the devil:​

    Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​

    And those who are like him, those who love darkness rather than light, the unrepentant:​

    In the passage below, there is no doubt as to the existence of God, but unrepentence and an abiding hatred of Him.​

    Revelation 16
    10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
    11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.​

    Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.​

    Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

    HankD​
     
  14. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    Usages of ruh in the OT translated as evil and being from God

    Judg 9:23, “Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech,”

    1Sam 16:15, 16, “Saul's servants then said to him, "Behold now, an evil spirit from God is terrorizing you. "Let our lord now command your servants who are before you. Let them seek a man who is a skillful player on the harp; and it shall come about when the evil spirit from God is on you, that he shall play the harp with his hand, and you will be well.”

    1 Sam 18:10, “Now it came about on the next day that an evil spirit from God came mightily upon Saul, and he raved in the midst of the house, while David was playing the harp with his hand, as usual; and a spear was in Saul's hand.”

    1 Sam 19:9, “Now there was an evil spirit from the Lord on Saul as he was sitting in his house with his spear in his hand, and David was playing the harp with his hand.”

    2 Sam 12:11, “Thus says the Lord, `Behold, I will raise up evil against you from your own household; I will even take your wives before your eyes and give them to your companion, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight.”

    1Kin 21:21, “Behold, I will bring evil upon you, and will utterly sweep you away, and will cut off from Ahab every male, both bond and free in Israel;”

    2Chr 34:24, “thus says the Lord, "Behold, I am bringing evil on this place and on its inhabitants, even all the curses written in the book which they have read in the presence of the king of Judah.”

    Prov 16:4, “The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil.”
     
  15. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    There are many Hebrew words the meaning of which must be determined from the context of the passge because that meaning varies.

    The Hebrew word RA is one of those word and as a matter of fact it is never (as far as I know) translated as "sin" or "transgression" in the KJV. The typical Hebrew word for "sin" is chatt'ah and/or it's different forms.

    In all of these passages above the word "evil - RA" has to do with adverse conditions sent by God as retribution for sin, disobedience or (as in the case of Job) a trial by fire.

    God either removes His protection from an individual or gives up that individual to his or her baser nature of the flesh.

    Romans 1
    25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.​
    26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections...

    James 1
    16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
    17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

    HankD
     
  16. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    Rippon:

    I am waiting for an intelligent response to post #5
     
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