The truth of Romans 9

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Ben Elohim, Feb 24, 2005.

  1. Ben Elohim

    Ben Elohim
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2005
    Messages:
    292
    Likes Received:
    0
    Let us look at this carefully and summarize at the end.

    Verses 1-5:

    Paul laments the fact this his Jewish brethren are not turning to Christ who, according to the flesh, came out of Israel. Paul makes this point because he wishes to emphasize the fact that Jesus was a Jew and foremost for the Jew.

    Verses 6-13:

    Paul illustrates that children of Abraham by the flesh are not necessaryily Israel but only the children of Abraham AND Isaac AND Jacob. Indeed, the name Israel comes from the fact that they are all Israel's (Jacob's) children. And indeed, this is why they referred to their God as "the God of Abraham and of Isaac and of Jacob." Not all Abraham's descendents can then possibly be Israel because Ishmael's and Esau's lineages are not sons of Israel (Jacob). God chose for the promised seed to go through this lineage of Isaac and Jacob and that promised seed is Christ, according to the flesh, which he mentioned in verse 5 (see also Gal 3:16). In other words, Paul is emphasizing the fact that God chose the nation of Israel to bless the nations of the world (as He promised to all three of their fathers) not because of anything the Jews did, nor simply because they were children of Abraham (Ishmael and Esau were also children of Abraham), but because He chose this particular lineage to be the lineage of the Messiah through whom all nations would be blessed. See Matthew 28:19.

    One will find nothing here about God choosing who would be saved and who would not and such ideas are only the product of the imagination and eisegetically reading extraneous notions into the text that are not there.

    Verse 14: Then Paul anticipates the objection that there might be injustice with God for choosing whomever He wills in this manner. This would be similar to objecting to Jesus choosing whatever men he desired to be Apostles from the chosen people of God.

    Essentially, the argument is that God is unfair to pick and chose who would be:

    Israelites, and to them belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises

    If you think about this carefully, you will see the trap Paul lays for complaining Jews. God chose them and they don't have a problem with it. But boy oh boy they sure get excited when God does this with Gentile Christians and this is what Paul always has in mind. He is subtley illustrating their own hypocrisy. Many Jews were puffed up thinking their status before God was "the chosen people" and they rested in the fact that "Abraham is our father." In other words, they reckoned that they could just rest on the idea that God hd chosen them and favored them due to the fact that they were Jews and had special status. But Paul explained way back in chapter 2 that this concept is very misguided. God does not favor anyone by status (2:11) but will judge all men by works on the Day (2:5-16) and a true Jew is one who walks the walk, not simply someone who is circumcised intot he Law (2:28-29). In this way, not all Israel are Israel. The faithful remnant are Israel and he will get into that in a bit.

    So when Paul says, "For (1) they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; NOR (2) are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants," he has two different ideas in mind.

    (1) Only those who walk the walk (2:28-29)
    (2) Only those who are children of Jacob aka Israel

    Verses 15-22

    Here Paul will explain that God may have mercy on whomever he desires to have mercy. The main point he has in mind here is that a prerequisite for God's mercy is not being a Jew under the Law. See verse 24. He already made a similar argument in chapter 3 where he argued that all sinned and fall short of the glory of God and God did not send his Son because he was blessing the efforts of the Jews but because of his mercy.

    "So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy."

    In other words, Paul is stressing the fact that many Jews have a misguided notion that God's mercy depends on their works of the Law but it doesn't. He sent his Son to die for the sins of Israel completely apart from the Law solely because of his mercy. See 3:21-26.

    So what we have so far is Paul illustrating that God blessed the nation of Israel in the past not because of anything they did, and not because they were sons of Abraham, but because he had made a promise to Abraham and to Isaac and to Jacob and this promise was attached to this lineage. And when God sent Jesus, he showed his mercy to them not because of anything they did under the Law, but because of his mercy toward them.

    Now Paul also mentions Pharaoh's hardened heart. What is his point here? Well if we carefully read this in context the answer is plainly obvious. Paul is comparing the hardened heart of Pharaoh to the hardened hearts of Jews who were not turning to Christ, the Jews Paul is lamenting about and prays for all of them to be saved (9:1-5; 10:1).

    " What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened.... for I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in... and so all Israel will be saved."

    When God comes to you and you disobey him your heart will be hardened toward him. This is why we find in Exodus that God hardened Pharaoh's heart but it also says Pharaoh hardened his own heart. When God calls us to obey him and we disobey this action by God hardens our hearts. But our disobedience is our choice and so we also harden our own hearts. Put another way, if God had not called us to obey him, our heart would not have been hardened by disobeying him. In this way, we understand that God hardened Pharaoh's heart - He called Pharaoh to obey him and Pharaoh would not. And it is the same problem here with Israel at the moment Paul is writing.

    Israel was a stubborn people and Paul goes on and on about this in chapters 10 and 11. God raised up Israel for this very purpose and this is why Paul compares them to Pharaoh.

    "Just as you were once disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, so they have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may receive mercy." (11:30).

    Paul's point is clear. Just as God raised up Pharoah and his hardened heart to show his mercy on the nation of Israel, now God has raised up Israel with its hardened heart to show his mercy upon the Gentiles.

    So then Paul anticipates the question, "Why does God find fault with me then?" and he follows this with an analogy of common and noble vessels. So who are the common and noble vessels in view? Some people God picked before creation versus some people he did not pick? Not even close.

    What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

    Who are fitted for destruction? Who is the object of God's wrath? Who did God endure with much patience and forbearance?

    "This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed" (3:25).

    In Pauline thought, that of the flesh is "common." In Philippians Paul speaks of this "commonor" idea in reference to Christ becoming a human servant as opposed to divine nobility (Php 2:5-6) and refers to our common fleshly bodies of humiliation that will be raised into noble glory (Php 3:20-21). The idea here is:

    Flesh: Common
    Spirit: Noble

    Israel of the flesh were common; Christians of the Spirit, both Jew and Gentile, are noble. They are sons of God. But Jews had the notion they were noble because of their fleshly lineage from Abraham. Wrong again says Paul.

    Paul's entire point here is this:

    "You Jews who refuse Christ didn't seem to have a problem thinking you were noble in contrast to Pharaoh so why do you have such a big problem with the idea that spiritual Christians are noble in contrast with you who are mere children of the flesh of Abraham?"

    Well the answer to that is quite plain. The Jews wanted to think of themselves as those who God considered as noble in contrast to common Gentiles, the common nations. Paul is decimating that notion right here and that is why he speaks as he does at Romans 11:13 to 11:25. He reminds the Gentiles to not get all high and mighty now in this same manner.

    Verses 23-25

    And here Paul makes it plain. The noble ones are those who are in Christ, not hardened Israel, the sons of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. And in verse 25 Paul speaks of the Gentiles whom God has made his people. Christians who suffer with Christ are those he is forepreparing for glory (see Romans 8:17-25, 30). There is nothing here for us to think that Paul meant that God prepared for certain people to become Christians especially in view of the fact Christians are not converts glorified in a conversion event but a people being prepared for glory on that Day.

    Verses 26-33

    And now Paul turns back to explain the initial phrase, "Not all Israel are Israel." This is very, very common in Paul's letters. He will mention something, head off in another direction and then return to explain something he has previously brought up. Here he shows that true Israel is the remnant, those who walk the walk (2:29).

    Israel as a whole did not pursue the righteousness of God but pursued their own brand of righteousness under the Law. And so they have stumbled. And this is why Paul laments hardened Israel.

    "They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, as it is written, "Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone that will make men stumble, a rock that will make them fall; and he who believes in him will not be put to shame. Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation."

    Yes Paul did not perceive hardened Israel to be God's reprobate but those who refused to come to Jesus for salvation. Indeed, Jesus was sent for their salvation and this was the whole end-goal of the Law and is why Paul cries out for them.

    SUMMARY

    1. Paul laments hardened Israel.
    2. Paul notes that not all Israel are Israel.
    3. Paul notes that not all Abraham's children are Israel but only children of the promise, that is, children of Abraham AND Isaac AND Jacob through whom Christ must also come to bless the nations as promised to the three patriarchs.
    4. Paul illustrates that their was no injustice with God by choosing to have mercy over Israel and not Pharaoh and so there is no injustice with God in choosing Christians (including Gentiles) over everyone else, including hardened Israel. Hence, the word of God has NOT failed, an objection Paul anticipated in verse 6.
    5. Paul here returns to the idea that not all Israel are Israel but only the remnant. And these are those who accept Christ.
    6. And Paul returns to his original idea that Israel as a whole have stumbled and he laments for their salvation and prays for their salvation.

    So is there absolutely anything in this passage that would imply the notions found in Calvinism? Absolutely nothing. These vain notions are completely imagined into the text by Calvinists.
     
  2. Doubting Thomas

    Doubting Thomas
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2003
    Messages:
    2,616
    Likes Received:
    6
    Good post.

    It just goes to show the importance of going with the flow of an entire epistle (ie, reading a passage in its context) rather than just being content with proof-texting.
     
  3. johnp.

    johnp.
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2004
    Messages:
    3,231
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ben.

    What is meant by this?

    In this way? EX 4:21 The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.
    Pharaoh had a hard heart already, common to mankind, but this hard heart needed to be hardened further to prevent him choosing the right course of action by God. JN 12:39 For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere: 40 "He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn--and I would heal them." 41 Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus' glory and spoke about him.
    I agree with that. Paul is comparing the hardened heart of Pharaoh to the hardened hearts of Jews... I thought you believed opposite to this!

    EX 34:34 But whenever he entered the LORD's presence to speak with him, he removed the veil until he came out. And when he came out and told the Israelites what he had been commanded, 35 they saw that his face was radiant. Then Moses would put the veil back over his face until he went in to speak with the LORD.
    2CO 3:12 Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away. 14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
    1 Cor 2:14 14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
    And this is a lie. It is the other way around. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go. So that Pharaoh refuses God hardens his heart. You have it wrong. "I will harden his heart so that..." So that.

    Your response?

    johnp.
     
  4. Ben Elohim

    Ben Elohim
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2005
    Messages:
    292
    Likes Received:
    0
    1. The Bible says that Jesus came to save israel from their sins.

    2. "Harden 'further'?" Hmmmm wait a minute here johnp. You claim Pharaoh was completely dead in sin? Can you explain why God had to make him more dead in sin? I am sure you can make something up.

    2. A lie huh? Where does it say here in this chapter that God hardened Pharaoh's heart for the express purpose of refusing to let His people go?
     
  5. johnp.

    johnp.
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2004
    Messages:
    3,231
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ben.

    What is meant by this?
    The Bible says that Jesus came to save israel from their sins.
    What is meant exactly by this?

    Answer the lie. And this is a lie. It is the other way around. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go. So that Pharaoh refuses God, God hardens his heart. You have it wrong. "I will harden his heart so that..." So that. So there!

    So that...! Don't worry about anything else untill you answer this.
    Explain yourself Ben, you oppose scripture get caught out and then you try a deflection. It won't work. I told you.
    Now answer the question Ben why don't you? There is no answer for you is there, for your lie? God hardened a sinner so that........so that........ you wanted a piece of me here it is. :cool:
    Yes a lie.
    In the same place it was in in my last post.
    EX 4:21 The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.
    Are you among the blind or something?

    Now you yourself can see God at work, at His strange work. Watch what you do now. If God is hardening you I am sure you can make something up. If God is softening you then I would expect a proper answer.

    johnp.
     
  6. Ben Elohim

    Ben Elohim
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2005
    Messages:
    292
    Likes Received:
    0
    Boy you really know how to dig your own theological grave johnp.

    1. What is meant is that the Bible says that Jesus came to save Israel from their sins.

    2. You have yet to answer why God would need to harden the heart of Pharaoh. On one hand you insist that man is completely dead in sin and cannot possibly obey the command of God. On the other hand, you want us to believe that God hardened Pharaoh's heart SO THAT Pharaoh would not obey his command. So which is it johnp? Was Pharaoh completely dead in sin and unable to obey the command of God? Or did God have to make him disobedient? You have yet to explain your contradictions here.

    3. You wish to read Romans 9 as if God unilaterally hardened Pharaoh's heart and ignore the verses which say Pharaoh hardened his own heart. When I asked where in this chapter of Romans it says that God hardened Pharaoh's heart "SO THAT...", you could not show me but had to appeal to Exodus 4:21. And so now here is your problem. You see to think we should ignore the statements in Exodus that Pharaoh hardened his own heart to the exclusive message or Romans 9 but do not wish to ignore the statements of Exodus on the other hand. Why do you insist that one should only see that God hardened Pharaoh's heart and nothing else on one hand, and then ignore several verses in Exodus which say Pharaoh hardened his own heart, In other words, you wish to go blind when it is demonstrated from Exodus that Pharaoh hardened his own heart and appeal only to Romans 9. But here now you are appealing to Exodus when you think its suits your purposes. Don't you find that just a bit hypocrtical johnp?

    Exodus 8:15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not listen to them, as the LORD had said.

    Exodus 8:32 But Pharaoh hardened his heart this time also, and he did not let the people go.

    Exodus 9:34 But when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunder had ceased, he sinned again and hardened his heart, he and his servants.

    Did Pharaoh harden his own heart or not johnp?
     
  7. johnp.

    johnp.
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2004
    Messages:
    3,231
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ben.

    What is meant by this?
    What is meant is that the Bible says that Jesus came to save Israel from their sins.
    What is meant exactly by this? You just repeat the same thing I asked the question about. I won't give ground. If you refuse to answer I shall keep asking just to show others your character.
    You are the one who insists all the time now I do. Answer my question.

    The darkness in you is deep I see. The answer is in the verse. At least when I say you have not answered I tell the truth.
    "So that Pharaoh would not obey..." He would have used his common sense and allowed the people to go would you not? The demonstration of God's power would have kicked in Pharaoh's self preservation. So that it did not happen God hardened him.

    Now answer me.

    I have answers to those other questions you have and they can come up after you answer my point.

    No but I do find you so. I see He hardens you.


    So that...! Don't worry about anything else untill you answer this.

    johnp.
     
  8. Ben Elohim

    Ben Elohim
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2005
    Messages:
    292
    Likes Received:
    0
    1. Well johnp, one wonders that you require questions asked a certain way, but the same standard does not apply to others. Interesting isn't it? And now we see YOUR character revealed.

    2. So you now ADMIT that unregenerate people are able to use their common sense and OBEY the command of God and do what He wills, correct?

    3. Does Scripture say that Pharaoh hardened his own heart or not johnp? Why do you avoid the question?
     
  9. johnp.

    johnp.
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2004
    Messages:
    3,231
    Likes Received:
    0
    I said no answers untill you answer the lie.
    It finishes your argument at the start which was a bit quicker than I was hoping for. You had led me to believe you were a hot shot in Romans.
    And I said all these questions can wait.
    Yes as all are. Answer the points.

    1) What is meant by this?
    ...the Bible says that Jesus came to save Israel from their sins.
    What is meant exactly by this?

    Pharaoh refused because God........what?

    johnp.
     
  10. Ben Elohim

    Ben Elohim
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2005
    Messages:
    292
    Likes Received:
    0
    We can all see now how you deal with issues johnp.

    Evasion.

    1. What Exodus 4:21 really says

    The Bible says in Exodus, "And Jehovah saith unto Moses, `In thy going to turn back to Egypt, see--all the wonders which I have put in thy hand--that thou hast done them before Pharaoh, and I--I strengthen his heart, and he doth not send the people away." (Young's Literal Translation."

    There is no "SO THAT" in the Hebrew text at Exodus 4:21 my friend.

    Here is Green's literal translation as well:

    And Jehovah said to Moses, As you go to return to Egypt, see all the wonders which I have put in your hand, and do them before Pharaoh. And I will make strong his heart, and he will not send the people away.

    2. So you now ADMIT that unregenerate people are able to use their common sense and OBEY the command of God and do what God wills. Correct?

    3. Does Scripture say that Pharaoh hardened his own heart or not johnp?

    So johnp, why do you avoid the question?
     
  11. johnp.

    johnp.
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2004
    Messages:
    3,231
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ben.

    Evasion.
    Hello! Quoting Hebrew boy? You do not know what firstborn means.
    It would have taken me by surprise if "SO THAT" was in the Hebrew.HaHa! :cool: Etymology: Middle English, from Old English sw thæt

    Exodus 4:21And Jehovah saith unto Moses, `In thy going to turn back to Egypt, see -- all the wonders which I have put in thy hand -- that thou hast done them before Pharaoh, and I -- I strengthen his heart, and he doth not send the people away;
    Young's Literal Translation.

    Turns out even worse for you don't it? Not only have you proved that so that so but you also fall into your pit of no future because here God prophesies about it. and he doth not send the people away; As a present reality to be. And God strengthens his heart, makes it firmer in resolve, and he will not, doth not.

    I will make strong his heart, and he will not send the people away.
    Why you should think this releases you I do not know but look down away and you will see that I have you still.

    Pharaoh refused because God........what to His .........what

    What is meant by this?
    ...the Bible says that Jesus came to save Israel from their sins.
    What is meant exactly by this?[/b

    johnp.
     
  12. Ben Elohim

    Ben Elohim
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2005
    Messages:
    292
    Likes Received:
    0
    1. There was no "SO THAT" in the text as you alleged johnp. Rant and rave all you like.

    2. Do you confirm your own previous admission that an unregenerate man can use his common sense to obey the command of God?

    3. Does Scripture say that Pharaoh hardened his own heart or not johnp? Why do you avoid the question?
     
  13. johnp.

    johnp.
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2004
    Messages:
    3,231
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ben.

    Another slur? I have done no ranting and raving have I? Forgive me.

    Might be that two questions at once is too much for you. I drop it down to just the one.
    Below is a list of likely candidates for the gaps.
    Strengthened. Hardened.
    Heart. Ticker.

    Pharaoh refused God because God .... his ....

    johnp.
     
  14. johnp.

    johnp.
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2004
    Messages:
    3,231
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ben.

    Why say I am ranting and raving Ben boy? Why should I be ranting and raving?
    Yesterday I told you I did not want to enter Romans nine because I was a bit busy and wanted the ability to concentrate so that I could destroy your nonsense.
    Just shows what a selfrighteous sinner I am in thinking it depended on me and my concentration! :cool:
    The very first attack destroyed you.

    johnp.
     
  15. Ben Elohim

    Ben Elohim
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2005
    Messages:
    292
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well I see you are a bit disappointed that things didn't work out for you but let's keep moving ahead okay?

    Go back to the original post and get some insight johnp. The Scripture says:

    1. God hardened Pharaoh's heart.
    2. Pharaoh hardened his own heart.

    How can you reconcile these two ideas? You do not even wish to bother because you do not wish to deal with the reality. The original post explains quite clearly HOW we can understand that both of these statements are true.

    NOW,

    1. Do you still admit that God needed to hardened the heart of a "'Totally Depraved' reprobate" dead in sin and in bondage to the will of the flesh so that this man would not obey Him?

    2. Do you confirm your own previous admission that an unregenerate man can use his common sense to obey the command of God?

    3. Does Scripture say that Pharaoh hardened his own heart or not johnp? Why do you avoid the question?

    4. Are you an advocate of double predestination?
     
  16. johnp.

    johnp.
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2004
    Messages:
    3,231
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well I see you are a bit disappointed that things didn't work out for you but let's keep moving ahead okay?
    :cool:

    That first post? Why didn't you say so earlier?

    Where abouts in that long post then Ben? It is still for you to answer me.

    johnp.
     
  17. Ben Elohim

    Ben Elohim
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2005
    Messages:
    292
    Likes Received:
    0
    johnp, you are not fooling anyone here but yourself. Please answer the questions at hand.

    1. Do you still admit that God needed to hardened the heart of a "'Totally Depraved' reprobate" dead in sin and in bondage to the will of the flesh so that this man would not obey Him?

    2. Do you confirm your own previous admission that an unregenerate man can use his common sense to obey the command of God?

    3. Does Scripture say that Pharaoh hardened his own heart or not johnp? Why do you avoid the question?

    4. Are you an advocate of double predestination?
     
  18. johnp.

    johnp.
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2004
    Messages:
    3,231
    Likes Received:
    0
    No one else around man! You still refuse to answer the lie?

    johnp.
     
  19. Ben Elohim

    Ben Elohim
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2005
    Messages:
    292
    Likes Received:
    0
    And what alleged lie are you talking about johnp?

    The multitude that you have promoted so far?

    1. Do you still admit that God needed to hardened the heart of a "'Totally Depraved' reprobate" dead in sin and in bondage to the will of the flesh so that this man would not obey Him?

    2. Do you confirm your own previous admission that an unregenerate man can use his common sense to obey the command of God?

    3. Does Scripture say that Pharaoh hardened his own heart or not johnp? Why do you avoid the question?

    4. Are you an advocate of double predestination?
     
  20. johnp.

    johnp.
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2004
    Messages:
    3,231
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ben.
    Now you ask me what the question is? :cool:
    Answer the lie. And this is a lie. It is the other way around. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go. So that Pharaoh refuses God, God hardens his heart. You have it wrong. "I will harden his heart so that..." So that. So there!
    The lie that puts Pharaoh ahead of God in what will be.

    You have some good questions to ask. Alas I cannot answer any of them because if I do I will just be gathering more questions from you but no answers to any.
    Each point you make in Romans nine will be countered. Each point you make wil be challenged by me. Since you fall at the first fence and seem unable to recover yourself I wonder if you will not be like this with everyone of my questions.

    So come on boy let's see what you're made of. :cool:

    johnp.
     

Share This Page

Loading...