The twelfth Apostle - Paul or Matthias?

You are correct Ed. It has been a very long week with two successive 12 hour days. I should have read up before I opened up.............. my mouth. :BangHead:

FWIW, This is a great study.

 

Sorry to jump in so late, but here is my take on this:

The original twelve disciples were appointed, commissioned and sent by the Lord Himself. The appointment was from Him, not man. Of course, there are apostles more than 12 referred to in The Bible but we are referring to The Twelve.

The apostles were asked to tarry in the city of Jerusalem till the promise of the Holy Ghost from on high, not to decide on replacements for the betrayer Judas. This the Lord could very well have done in the 40 days between His resurrection and ascension and He chose not to do so.

The criteria for selection was from Peter - not acting on the direction of the Holy Spirit's endowment, which they had been assured. The reference in John 20:22 - "And when he had said this, he breathed on them , and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:". His breathing on them was a definite sign that they would be endowed with the influences of the Holy Ghost. So till the day of Pentecost, they had not been so endowed.

After they appointed two (using criteria they themselves set), they cast lots asking the Lord, which of the two You have chosen. Hardly they way the Spirit leads, don't you think? The way the Holy Spirit leads to a correct decision or selection can be seen in Acts 13:1-3

1 Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. 2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. 3 And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.

In Acts, repeated mentions are made as to the twelve (which include Matthias as well) and that does not mean that it was perfectly Gods will and plan. As far as whether Luke would have dealt with the appointment of Matthias as correct or legitimate or not is hardly the issue as Luke was not and did not comment on the "selection" or "election" but merely wrote down the FACTS as had occurred.

The arguments against Mathias in that he is not mentioned later are quite irrelevant because a number of apostles have not been mentioned either.

Greetings to you all

 

Paul, an Apostle chosen of God, but not of "The Twelve"

I'm going to refer to an old thread in another forum on this very subject:

Its obvious that the Lord chose Paul for some very very important Apostolic work. Its just as obvious that Paul "distinguishes" himself from The Twelve as indicated above.

I too believed at one time that Paul had to be the Twelfth. I mean, God chose him and had him do so so very much! Right?

Well, I now realize I was thinking as a man, with pride and presumption.
However, Paul continually showed that he did not think in the same way as we self-centered folks. He is more than happy to defer to another, God's grace being sufficient for him. He'd probably be the first to tell you he didn't think he needed or wanted (coveted?) his name on any elevated status.

May we learn from Paul's example of humility.

 

Thanks usmjam. I was referring more to Mathias disqualifications rather than Pauls qualifications.

 

My point is that what Paul thinks or writes about or what he considers regarding the matter is largely irrelevant. The matter of who the twelfth disciple as far as the LORD is concerned is known to Him alone.

That was neither the responsibility nor the prerogative of Peter or the other apostles or any other to decide on how to when to or whom to appoint.

 

Has anyone else noticed this similarity between the twelve apostles and the twelve tribes of Israel?:

It could be asked concerning the tribes: Were there 12, 13, or 14 tribes of Israel?

It could be asked concerning the apostles: Were there 12, 13, or 14 apostles?

The question concerning the tribes revolves around Joseph and his two sons (the half-tribes) Manasseh and Ephraim. Which one of these is counted in the twelve?

The question concerning the apostles revolves around Judas, Matthias, and Paul. Which one of these is counted in the twelve?

Dan is called a serpent and an adder in his father's prophecy:

Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward. Gen 49:17

Christ refers to Judas as a devil:

Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve. Jn 6:70,71

Dan is not included in the tally of the tribes given in Rev 7 . Manasseh is included in the count as is Joseph. Ephraim is almost of a certain counted as one with Joseph.

MHO, Paul is the twelfth apostle.

 

Paul ??

The matter in and of itself is of no "doctrinal changing" experience, but correctly defining the role of Paul as called by God, and his vision of himself in that plan, reflects directly upon our being able to allow the Holy Spirit to "interpret" to us ALL passages of scripture, of which this is included. I have never been after anything but the truth.

I have always maintained that Paul was the 12th, replacing Judas, of which Matthias was the "disciples forced choice" in order to "this scripture must needs be fulfilled".

I believe in the entirety of the Word of God. Every jot and tittle. Every phrase and word is there for a distinct purpose. All these years I had overlooked the phrase of Paul referring to "the twelve" of which could not be Judas (he was dead, and presumably lost) and Paul (or Saul) was not yet a disciple, much less an apostle.

This is very interesting, and much study will go into this subject for the next several days. Many thanks to Bro. USMjam for pointing that out. (S F)

 

And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. Rev 21:14


It's 100% God's call on who is the twelfth apostle; But it's just hard for me to imagine Paul's name NOT being on one those above mentioned foundations.

 

And afterward he was manifested unto the eleven themselves as they sat at meat....Mk 16:14


Is it possible that Paul was referring to the eleven as the twelve metaphorically?

 

Don't forget Junia when considering apostles and disciples.

 

I believe, based on scriptural principles, that Matthias IS NOT the 12th apostle. I also think or hold that, of all the New Testament biblical personalities, Paul is the most likely candidate to have been the Lord's choice as the 12th apostle. While I am sure of the first, the second is just my belief based on study.

 

Let's briefly suppose for the sake of argument that you are correct, here. Then who became the 12th Apostle in the stead of James the 'Great', who was killed by Herod (Ac. 12:2), and that prior to the 'call' of Saul and Barnabas? (Ac. 13:2)

And likewise where do you rate other ten or so the Bible calls and identifies either directly or indirectly as apostles, including such as Barnabas (Ac. 14:14), James 'the Just' (I Cor. 15:7, Gal. 1:19), Epaphroditus (Phil'p. 2:25 - WYC, YLT, AMP), and last but certainly not least, in my Bible, Christ Jesus (Heb. 3:1)?

As I have previously said, since the Bible characterizes them as 'Apostle' then that's good enough for me.

Ed

 

When I refer to the "call" of Saul and Barnabas in Acts 13:2, I did not mean that THAT was the apostolic call. I was comparing the way the Spirit guides men to be selected for a particular work and held it in contrast to the way Peter and the rest selected and elected Matthias as the 12th apostle.

The "12 apostles" was not a continuing office as only Judas lost his office and needed to be replaced. So as you mentioned, there is no one who needs to replace James or any of the other others who died or were killed.

As you state and as is clear from the Bible, there are more references to others called apostles including Andronicus, Apolos, Barnabas, Epaphroditus, James - the Lord's Brother, Junias or Junia, Silas, Timothy, Two Unnamed Apostles and finally The Lord Jesus Christ - The Apostle of Apostles.

Here the issue is of "The Twelve" who were promised in Luke 22:29-30

29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; 30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

and in Mathew 19:28
28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

 

This should have been posted as a poll so that we could see the results. That would have been interesting. I cast my vote for Matthias.

 

My vote is also for Matthias. I find no hint in Acts that the Apostles erred in choosing Judas' replacement. As for the casting of lots, that deserves its own Biblical study as it appears several times through the scriptures.
IMHO, Paul was not one of the 12 (and Paul seems to have agreed with this), but was an Apostle born out of due time, thus specially called at a later time than "the 12".

 

Hope you don't mind me adding more to an old but very good thread.....

Certainly the concept that it represents is primary, but there is also much importance in the composition. There are many lessons to be gleaned from the backgrounds and conduct of the Apostles as well as of the twelve tribes and their patriarchs. More lessons are found in the way the early church conducted business and in the fact that the eleven felt the need to fill the void left by Judas. Were they too hasty in casting the lots? Was God overriding their choice when He called Saul to become Paul? Many interesting and fruitful lessons are contained in the study of both the concept and composition of the twelve

Keep in mind that many of us believe that in the Book of Revelation twelve represents both the tribes of Israel and the Apostles. Patriarchal & spiritual leadership from Old & New Testaments together leading the worship of the Almighty right there before the throne in heaven:

Revelation 4

1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

7 And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.

8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, LORD God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,

10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

 

Actually, the Biblical requirement was to have seen the risen Lord, and jesus Himself commissioned paul as the Apostle unto the gentiles, SAME positional authority/rank etc that peter had as Apostle to the jews!

 

21 Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us— 22 beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us—one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.” 23 So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias. 24 And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all men, show which one of these two You have chosen 25 to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.” 26 And they drew lots for them, and the lot fell to Matthias; and he was added to the eleven apostles.

Paul did not accompany the disciples throughout Jesus' ministry.

 

"The Twelve" (includes Matthias) were for (genetic) Israel.

Paul was the Apostle for the Gentiles.
Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, - witness #1
I Tim 2:7, ...I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, .... and a teacher of the Gentiles... - witness #2
2 Tim 1:11 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles. - witness #3

II Cor 13:1
Deut 19:15
In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established

So, if you are a Gentile, then Paul is your Apostle ...not Peter, not John, not James.