The two witnesses... TWO candlesticks...?

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Jesus is Lord, Aug 26, 2004.

  1. Jesus is Lord

    Jesus is Lord
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    Can anyone help me with this?

    Revelation says of the two witnesses
    "These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth."

    But Zechariah 4 is just talking about ONE candlestick and two trees... :confused:
     
  2. Paul of Eugene

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    Hey, candles weren't even INVENTED when Revelation was written!

    Oh - the two witnesses. They are the old and the new covenants, or testaments, that is, our bible. The candlesticks - oops, lampstands - represent the community of believers. You know - one light = one believer, a group of lights = a community of believers.

    The two in this case represent the Jewish community and the Christian community, each having their place/time as witnesses for the truth of God.

    Don't look for them to come at a future time. They are doing their witnessing RIGHT NOW.

    Their dying and lying dead in the streets represents a time when men no longer believe the Bible and simply don't respond if you tell them "but the BIBLE says . . "

    That is our present condition

    Just before Christ's return something will happen that will cause men to begin believing the Bible message again. That is their "coming to life".
     
  3. tamborine lady

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    [​IMG]

    And I'm sure that is not the only explanation, so come on, lets hear another one!!

    Tam,

    :D :confused:
     
  4. Paul of Eugene

    Paul of Eugene
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  5. tamborine lady

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    [​IMG]

    Dear Jesus Is Lord,

    Here's my take on the matter.

    I believe that the two witnesses are two actual people that come to Jerusalem and preach for 3 1/2 years. At the end of that time. they are slain, and lie in the streets for three days with people celebrating because they are dead.

    After three days, they come back to life.

    Tam
     
  6. tamborine lady

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    [​IMG]

    Rev-11-7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
    8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

    9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
    10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
    11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.


    They lie in the streets 3 1/2 days, and then they ascend up to heaven in a cloud.


    Tam
     
  7. Paul of Eugene

    Paul of Eugene
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    OK now I interpret the "dead bodies lying in the streets" as the dead sea scrolls kept in the museum in Jerusalem. The 3 1/2 days I interpret to be symbolic of the actual time frame in which the Word of God is held in low esteem by the world. The making merry and giving gifts to one another our secular nation fulfills every Christmas time when the emphasis is always - how much money will people spend this year? Will the holiday shoppers make the merchants have a prosperous year?

    Paul
     
  8. Jesus is Lord

    Jesus is Lord
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    That was not my point (but thank you for your time and answers). In Zechariah they are called the two olive trees on the left and right of the lampstand. That prophecy is quoted in Revelation 11:4 and they are called the two olive trees and the two lampstands... Zechariah saw only one lampstand with two olive trees... see what I mean? Any help?
     
  9. Paul of Eugene

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    Why, because the one lampstand represents the old covenant, our old testament if you please, and the other lampstand wasn't an option until the Revelation of John was written at which time the new covenant has come into being!
     
  10. Eric B

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    The two lampstands held the 7 branches with the seven lamps, which were the seven Spirits. This most believe was Israel. Now, in Rev. we no longer see this one lampstand, but rather, it is the Lamb who now has the seven horns and eyes, which are the seven Spirits. The Church is represented by seven candlesticks. The Two olive trees (which in Zechariah supplied oil to the lamps) are now also candlesticks. They are generally believed to be Moses and Elijah, representing "the Law and the Testimony". So of course now, they would represent the two Testaments. They could still represent two literal prophets; the final "Elijah to Come", plus another one. Candlesticks, I believe, simply signifies Spirit-anointed light-bearers.
     
  11. BobRyan

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    The two lampstands represent the OT and NT not the Old covenant and New Covenant.

    The OT and NT are "the Word of God" - the written text of scripture. We know this because John is referencing Zech 4:2-6 where the Lampstands are said to represent "The Word of the Lord".

    Rev 11 points to the rise of the age of Reason in France (atheism tosses out Christianity) and predicts a 3.5 year period where the Bible is banished (the two witnesses are dead in the streets) from that country. It even predicts this event to happen in the late 1700's and the celebrating and gifts sent in celebration. (near the end of the 1260 years of Rev 11).

    An amazing prophecy - actually.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  12. tamborine lady

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    [​IMG]

    Rev 11 points to the rise of the age of Reason in France (atheism tosses out Christianity) and predicts a 3.5 year period where the Bible is banished (the two witnesses are dead in the streets) from that country. It even predicts this event to happen in the late 1700's and the celebrating and gifts sent in celebration. (near the end of the 1260 years of Rev 11).

    But this han't happened yet has it Bob??

    Late 1700's??

    Please explain!!!!

    Tam
     
  13. BobRyan

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    Yes it did happen. France banished the Bible and Christianity for exactly 3.5 years.

    For 1260 days the two witnesses (OT and NT) prophesied under persecution by the RCC. At then end of that time - France (the oldest Christian nation in Europe) overthrew Christianity during the French revolution. (1770-1799).

    In 1793
    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  14. Paul of Eugene

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    I'm with you 100% on identifying the two witnesses with the old and new testaments, or in other words the Bible, Bob, but I kind of think that one country only banning the Bible doesn't quite match up to Revelation's prophecy . . . although I'll grant you the skepticism concerning the Bible we have today traces its roots right through that time!
     
  15. tamborine lady

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    [​IMG]

    That sounds good Bob, except for two things.

    1. The scripture in Rev. 11 mentions the holy city:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
    And there is no city in France that is considered the holy city.

    2. Scripture also says: Rev- 11-8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
    Our Lord was not crucified in France, but in Jerusalem.

    Sorry Bob, your explanation won't wash!!

    Peace,

    Tam
     
  16. BobRyan

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    Rev 11, 12 and 13 point out unique events in world history that were specific to the Gospel's progress and the people of God in John's future.

    Obviously the quote above shows the unique aspects of the work of France historically in this regard.


    Revelation 11
    This reference to the Temple of God, those who worship in it and the Holy City, can only refer to saints, the real temple we see in Heb 8 (in heaven) and the persecuted church on earth as the holy city where the saints dwell prior to the 2nd coming.

    Although Christ serves in the Heb 8 temple of God – the outer court – the earth and the place where the saints dwell “the Holy City” is given to the gentiles (non-Christians), other translations say “The Nations” (European nations in this case) who persecute the saints for 1260 years. (A time beginning after the start of the church age as we see in Rev 12 that speaks to this same point)


    The two witnesses are the two lampstands.
    The Two lampstands are the Word of God (OT and the NT).


    The Word of God is represented by the Lampstand and the two witnesses – the two anointed ones are connected with it as the two olive trees providing oil to the lampstand. Oil flows from the olive trees to the lampstand.

    By the Word of the Lord the heavens were made, by His Word Elijah shut up the heavens and as Christ said “My Word will judge” mankind in the last days.

    The “great city” is in contrast to the “Holy City” of vs 1-2. This great city is mystically called Sodom and Egypt where our Lord was crucified – shows a clear indication of symbolism. IT is not “literally” Sodom or Egypt nor literally where the Lord was crucified.

    Sodom stood for vice and luxury (Gen 19:4-8, Ezek 16:49-58)
    And Egypt symbolized atheist skepticism saying “who is God that I should obey Him” (Exodus 5:2).

    These symbols are used to represent France in the late 1700’s.

    France banished the Bible and Christianity for exactly 3.5 years.
    For 1260 days the two witnesses (OT and NT) prophesied under persecution by the RCC. At then end of that time - France (the oldest Christian nation in Europe) overthrew Christianity during the French revolution. (1770-1799).

    In 1793
    Soon after France repealed its legislative decision to ban the Bible and Christianity – Bible societies started in Europe that forever put an end to the possibility of suppressing the Word of God in written form.

    The city is not identified as “The Holy City”. It may well represent the nations of Christendom during this time and the earthquake represents the French Revolution.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. tamborine lady

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    Ho Hum-- [​IMG]

    G' night.

    Tam
     
  18. BobRyan

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    Er umm - good day. :rolleyes:
     
  19. wopik

    wopik
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    Paul of Eugene
    posted August 26, 2004 11:21
    There is no historical record of the first candles used by man, however clay candle holders dating from the fourth century B.C. have been found in Egypt. Early Chinese and Japanese candles were made with wax derived from insects and seeds molded in paper tubes. Wax skimmed from boiling cinnamon was the basis of tapers for temple use in India.

    http://www.craftcave.com/candle/history.shtml

    http://www.igca.net/history/

    http://www.candlecomfort.com/historyofcandles.html
     
  20. wopik

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    The first time the word "candlestick" is used in the Bible is Exodus 25:31 ---- "...you shall make a candlestick of pure gold..."

    get a concordance and check it out.
     

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