The two witnesses

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by evangelist6589, Jan 26, 2015.

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  1. evangelist6589

    evangelist6589
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    Was reading Agents of the Apocalypse last night and Jeremiah has a little different idea on them than Tim Lahaye. In Jeremiah's view they will not be stationed at the Western Wall but will walk around Jerusalem doing open air street preaching. The bible leads us to speculate as all we know is that they will preach 1260 days and will be able to call down fire on their enemies.

    I am not sure if Lahaye or Jeremiah is correct, but I see no reason why they would station themselves in one location for the 1260 days as what Lahaye teaches. So what do you say?

    Also the AntiChrist. In lahayes view he will come from Romania but according to Jeremiah Great Britain. This one is up for debate so I am not sure. But why not Great Britain? These guys get very speculative on some issues where the bible seems silent. Mac when he writes his books on prophecy does not get as speculative in areas where the Bible is silent. Interesting....
     
    #1 evangelist6589, Jan 26, 2015
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  2. OldRegular

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    I would say that both are wrong! There is no pre-trib-rapture. The Church is still here until Jesus Christ returns.

    Well probably because of the following:

    1 John 2:18. Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

    1 John 2:22. Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

    1 John 4:3. And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

    2 John 7. For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
     
  3. Greektim

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    :BangHead:

    Even when I was a dispie... I thought it was unhelpful to get too specific in these kinds of things. Then you start sounding like Jack Van Impe and that aint a good thing.
     
  4. InTheLight

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    It's likely the two witnesses will not stay in Jerusalem for the entire 1,260 days. The only thing we know for sure is that their dead bodies will be viewed there for 3 1/2 days.

    As to the country of origin of the Antichrist, I see no reason to believe it is any particular country and no reason to eliminate any particular country. For all we know, he could come from the U.S.
     
  5. OldRegular

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    Do we really know that?
     
  6. OldRegular

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    If Van Impe lived a thousand years he would still be able to tie the daily news, Israel, and the rapture into one package!
     
  7. convicted1

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    I finally figgered out who the two witnesses are during the tribulation period...

    Jack and Rexella Van Impe....
     
  8. Rolfe

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    LeHaye, Van Impe, Linsey... professional speculators.
     
  9. OldRegular

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    You better hope the Darby-pre-trib-dispensationalists are wrong or you will be Left-Behind to go thru the Grrreat Tribulation for that.:laugh::laugh::thumbsup::thumbs:
     
  10. evangelist6589

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    I see that Rolf and IntheLight have replied and prob still poking at me even from ignore. Some people never give up and would rather speak to a wall because no one is listening to them.
     
  11. Rolfe

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    Responding to people who are supposedly being ignored defeats the purpose of the list, doesn't it?
     
  12. Sapper Woody

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    Wow, what a negative attitude. Guess what? You're wrong. ITL posted an honest answer, and Rolf posted a lighthearted, yet honest, answer.
     
  13. Tom Butler

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    I am aware of two views of the two witnesses.

    One is Israel, the other is the Church, according to those views.

    One problem is that each witness is described as two of something: One is two olive trees; the other is two lampstands

    Anybody want to tackle this?
     
  14. sag38

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    Despite my opinion it will be interesting to see how this really plays out according to God's plan. I have a feeling that most of us will find that it doesn't work out exactly the way we think that it will.
     
  15. OldRegular

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    The following is from some notes I used in teaching the Book of Revelation several years ago!


    The Two Witnesses


    Revelation 11:3-4, KJV
    3. And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
    4. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.


    Expositors of the Book of Revelation are in general agreement that this passage regarding the two witnesses is one of the more difficult in Scripture to interpret and there are widely held viewpoints as to who or what the two witnesses represent.

    In the passage John is told that the two witnesses, two people, are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. Because of this identification of the two witnesses a symbolic interpretation of the passage is indicated. Why two witnesses? Under the Mosaic law two witnesses were required to establish the truth of a matter [Deuteronomy 19:15]. Jesus Christ sent His disciples out by twos [Luke 10:1].

    The olive trees apparently refer to a vision by the prophet Zechariah [Zechariah 4]. In that vision Zechariah sees two olive trees which supply oil to a reservoir which in turn provides oil to the seven lamps of the Menorah [Exodus 25:31-40]. He is told that the two olive trees are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth [Zechariah 4:14]. The two candlesticks are reminiscent of John’s initial vision of the glorified Saviour in the midst of the seven candlesticks [Revelation 1:10ff], candlesticks which represent the seven churches of Asia or the Church. Both Old Covenant symbolism and New Covenant symbolism are used to represent the two witnesses. In this vision then the olive trees represent the servants of God and the candlesticks represent the Church. Recall also that Paul uses the analogy of an olive tree to represent the people of God and demonstrate the continuity of Spiritual Israel, the Church, under both the Old and New Covenants [Romans 11]. The most acceptable interpretation of the two witnesses is that they represent the Church throughout the Gospel age, particularly the Church as a witness to Jesus Christ.

    If we accept that the two witnesses represent the Church then the allusion to the Old Testament phenomena as powers that the two witnesses possess can be better understood.

    Revelation 11:5-6, KJV
    5. And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
    6. These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.


    The fire that comes from the mouth of the witnesses can be understood by referring to the word of God to the prophet Jeremiah: Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them [Jeremiah 5:14]. Although the reference to fire in the mouth of Jeremiah is not to be taken literally, his message was a prelude to God’s use of Babylon to judge Israel. In John’s vision the fire represents God’s Word as spoken by the Church. The Gospel message when received by faith is Salvation, that same message when rejected is judgment [John 3:18].

    The two witnesses also have the power to bring drought, turn water into blood, and bring plagues upon the earth. Though these are references to the literal exercise of powers given Elijah [1 Kings 17:1] and Moses [Exodus 7:19ff] it is unlikely that a literal interpretation is warranted here. As noted above because of the identification of the two witnesses as the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth a symbolic interpretation of the passage is indicated. Recall also that the purpose of an interlude is not be interpreted as a delay in the progress of the outworking of God’s purpose in history but rather to present words of comfort and assurance for the Church. Therefore, the interpretation that most fits verse 6 is that it is simply a continuation of the judgment indicated in verse 5 of those who reject the Gospel of Salvation.

    John writes in Verse 7:

    7. And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

    The witnesses have finished their testimony, they have accomplished God’s purpose. Now they are, like the Apostle Paul, ready to be offered [2 Timothy 4:6]. The beasts that comes out of the abyss, that is from Satan, makes war with the two witnesses and kills them[]. This first introduction to the beast is presented in dramatic fashion. He is obviously a servant of Satan and as such will appear again. That the beast is said to make war against the two witnesses is further justification that they represent the Church. War is not made against two individuals alone.

    However, since the two witnesses represent the Church, how can the vision of their death be explained? [This event poses no particular problem for those who believe the two witnesses represent individuals.] Recall from the previous section that the Church is to be trampled underfoot by those who are without God. Now after enduring persecution through the ages she has completed her testimony. The Church is to suffer what seems to be defeat at the hands of Satan. This apparent defeat of the Church can only occur to the extent that God allows it because prior to His ascension the Risen Lord told the Church: .... and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.[Matthew 28:20] When He announced the Church Jesus Christ declared: I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it [Matthew 16:18].

    Before attempting to explain further this event and its significance it is well to consider the events that follow the slaying of the witnesses.

    Revelation 11:8-10, KJV
    8. And their dead bodies [shall lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
    9. And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
    10. And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.


    The bodies lie in the street of a great city. Burial is not allowed[]. This ‘great city’, is spiritually called Sodom, Egypt, and Jerusalem. The wording itself tells us that this is not a literal city because the designation ‘great city’ refers to Babylon throughout the remainder of the book. Egypt was and is a country, not a city; Sodom was not a great city; therefore, these names are spiritually or symbolically applied. Sodom has represented throughout history the depths of human sin and perversion. Babylon and Egypt represent arrogant opposition to the purpose of God. Jerusalem, where also our Lord was crucified, represents self-willed denial of the gracious revelation of God[].

    The ’great city’ represents the hatred and antagonism toward God by unbelieving people and the world they have fashioned. The Church is ever a witness both to and against such people. The rejection of that witness brings condemnation [John 3:18], therefore, the people of the ‘great city’, people of kindreds and tongues and nations, make merry over the apparent death of that witness. The thorn has been removed. However, their merriment is short lived; the witnesses, the Church, lives.

    Revelation 11:11-14, KJV
    11. And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
    12. And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
    13. And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
    14. The second woe is past; [and], behold, the third woe cometh quickly.


    The death and subsequent resurrection of the witnesses represents the many times in the history of the Church Age when the Church is brought low because of bitter persecution only to burst forth with renewed vigor. Philip Edgcumbe Hughes writes [page 129, The Book of Revelation], The death-throes of the saints are at the same time the birth-pangs of the church as it is reborn from generation to generation.
     
    #15 OldRegular, Feb 15, 2015
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  16. beameup

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    It's the Time of Jacob's Trouble.
    Jer 30:7
     
  17. Tom Butler

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    My thanks to Old Regular for his detailed interpretation.

    It has given me plenty to absorb.

    What about the view that the two witnesses are Moses and Elijah?
     
  18. The Biblicist

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    He says "TWO" not one. These witnesses are presented in connection with the measuring of the temple and out court (Rev. 11:1-2).

    My view is that they represent the two institutional houses of God of both covenants - Jewish and Gentile - rather than all of the elect. Of course, I believe there are "saved" elect that will dwell OUTSIDE of the New Jerusalem in the new heaven and earth upon the new earth (Rev. 21:24) which are privy to the "leaves" of the tree of life whereas the institutional house of God is privy to the "fruit" of the tree of life - neither representing initial eternal life but rather post-judgement life in the new heaven and earth.

    Thus the same two characterize the New Jerusalem in the new heaven and earth as foundations and gates.

    The "two witness" are described by characterizing all the primary features of all the famous duo's in the Scriptures (Moses and Aaron, Elijah and Elisha, Zerrubabel and the High Priest , John the Baptist and Jesus) were worked directly with the institutional houses of God of both covenants.

    The temple proper is measured - indicating the church aspect has been completed. The outer court is not measured but is being trampled under foot indicating the promised salvation of the future nation of Israel has not yet occurred and won't be until His coming.
     
  19. revmwc

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    These two witnesses are referred to as two olive trees and two candlesticks. Track back to the Old Testament prophecy. Zechariah 4:2, 2 “And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:” God has given them the power to witness in Jerusalem! These two olive trees are two anointed ones! They stand for the Lord upon the whole earth. They stand together as God’s witnesses. As the light shining in the world, as God’s light shines through them.

    Anti-christ, false Messiah, the second beast out of the land, he will represent himself as the Jewish Messiah. The spiritual authority during the Tribulation. With the representation of being the Messiah he must be a Jew.

    Many refer to the first Beast the one out of the Sea as anti-christ, while he is against God and against Christ, he is not the Anti-christ, he is the leader of the Government during the Time of Jacobs Trouble, the Tribulation period. He will come out of one of the nations from within the ten represented by the ten horns.

    So which anti-christ are you referring too?
     
  20. OldRegular

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    God only has one people, the Elect. The description of the New Jerusalem is, at least to me, further evidence of this. i find it interesting that the foundation are the Apostles and the Gates the twelve tribes! One would think that the Old Testament people would be identified as the foundation.
     
    #20 OldRegular, Feb 25, 2015
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