The U In The TULIP Doctrine

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by tyndale1946, Feb 15, 2002.

  1. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>When I read of election in the Bible, and the sweet hope that God foreknew me as a depraved wretch, and yet loved and chose me long before I in anywise existed, I rejoice with great joy. When we further consider that while like others, we deserved to be condemned according to our works when ruled by sin, and yet the Lord has now saved us, "not according to our works," but according to His own purpose and grace given or stored in Christ for us before the world began when we think of this I say, we are filled with gratitude and praise to God. Now we feel sweetly constrained to love and obey our Lord. We no longer yield to the carnal mind to fight against God and His word, but we now believe the Bible and "rejoice in the truth." Yes, we rejoice that we were chosen in Christ before the world--not as Spiritual Two-seedism claims that we were in Christ before the world, but the choice was in Christ before the world, in Christ is where we were chosen, "when as yet there was none" of us. We read in Eph. i. 4, "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    This was a excerpt from one of the sermons of one of our past Elders M.D. Denman around the turn of the century.

    The doctrine of Unconditional Election is as true today as its ever been. God did not choose us because of anything he saw in us. He chose us before Adam sinned although God certainly knew Adam would sin. He didn't look through each of our lives and chose us for the goodness he saw in us. According to the doctrine of Total Depravity he couldn't choose us, because their was no goodness in us. For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

    Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth ;

    12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

    13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

    14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

    15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

    16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

    17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

    18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

    19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

    20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

    21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

    22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

    23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

    24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

    25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

    26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

    No matter what anyone says against the doctrine of unconditional election it can't be overthrown because it is sound doctrine and Gospel... Good News!... Brother Glen [​IMG]

    [ February 15, 2002: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]
     
  2. JAMES2

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  3. Brutus

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    Great comments Brother Glenn!!!!If I may add a couple of comments;If all of us are so depraved that we cannot come to God without being born again by the irresistable grace of God,and if this particular grace is purchased by Christ on the cross,then it is clear that the salvation of any of us is owing to God's election.Election refers to God's choosing whom to save.It is unconditional in that there is no condition that man must meet before God chooses to save him.Man is dead in trespasses and sin.So there is no condition he can meet before God chooses to save him from his deadness.I'm not saying that final salvation is unconditional,it is not.But we must meet the condition of faith in Christ in order to inherit eternal life.Faith is not a condition for election,in fact it's just the opposite.Election is a condition for faith.It's because God chose us before the foundation of the world that He purchases our redemption at the cross and quickens us with irresistable grace and brings us to faith. :eek:
     
  4. JAMES2

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    [ February 20, 2002: Message edited by: JAMES2 ]
     
  5. tyndale1946

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I'm not saying that final salvation is unconditional,it is not.But we must meet the condition of faith in Christ in order to inherit eternal life.Faith is not a condition for election,in fact it's just the opposite.Election is a condition for faith.It's because God chose us before the foundation of the world that He purchases our redemption at the cross and quickens us with irresistable grace and brings us to faith.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Do you believe that everyone of the elect will know Jesus Christ in time? What about the Jews are they embraced in the doctrine of election who don't believe in Jesus Christ to this day? Gods children are Gods children and it is true they may be in error but as far as election is concerned they are embraced in the beloved.

    Unconditional Election does not go by nationality, creed, or deed. God is able and does save his people inspite of themselves no matter what they believe.

    Romans 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

    2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

    3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

    4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

    5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)

    6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?

    7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?

    8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.

    9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

    10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

    11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

    12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

    The Faith is in Jesus Christ but unlike others who think we work to get that election, we who have been delivered from darkness into his marvelous light, work out our own salvation because we already have it!... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  6. JAMES2

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    [ February 20, 2002: Message edited by: JAMES2 ]
     
  7. Brutus

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    Hey James2;I got your message. Acts13:48 says how the Gentiles responded to the preaching of the gospel in Antioch."And when the Gentiles heard this,they were glad and glorified the word of God;and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed".Notice it does not say that as many believed were chosen to be ordained to eternal life.The prior election of God is the reason some believed while others did not.
     
  8. Brutus

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    Similarly,Jesus says to the Jews in Jn.10:26,"You do not believe,because you do not belong to my sheep."He does not say,"You are not my sheep because you do not believe."Being a sheep is something God decides for us before we believe.It's the basis and enablement of our belief.We believe because we are God's chosen sheep,not vice versa.see Jn.8:47;18:37
     
  9. Christopher

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    All you brethren have already said it perfectly, but I would like to say that if divine election was not unconditional no man could ever be saved; no man would ever want to be saved -

    "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." [Rom. 3:11]

    Contrary to what some people think, God did not look into the future and see who would believe and elect them according to their belief. God's children were elected according to God's goodness, not their own. God's children were elected to the belief of the truth, not because of it -

    "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:" [2 Thess. 2:13]

    -Christopher
     
  10. tyndale1946

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    James you didn't seem to understand me when I said creed. Creed is what you believe no matter what religion you are. The Jews don't know Jesus Christ or his Salvation are they of the elect? What about the Hindus, the Indians, the Budhist, the Muslims, the Mormons and the Jehova Witness to mention a few creeds are they of the elect?

    When we speak of Unconditional Election that is just what it is. The only condition is that you were chosen in Christ before the world began. God chose them and he gave them to his Son and he saved them. The working of God in any of his childrens hearts are beyond our comprehension and his election of them because of his Sovereign Love we will not understand their fullness until we see God face to face... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  11. JAMES2

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    [ February 20, 2002: Message edited by: JAMES2 ]
     
  12. JAMES2

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    Of course, I was assuming you were talking about Christian creeds, like the 1689 baptist confession, the Westminister confession etc.
    The other groups you mentioned are so far out there I wasn't even thinking of them at all. I'm talking about solid DOCTRINE, obviously based on the bible.
    James2

    [ February 15, 2002: Message edited by: JAMES2 ]
     
  13. tyndale1946

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    Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

    10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

    11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

    12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

    Revelation 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

    10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

    11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

    12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

    13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

    That Brethren is Unconditional Election... Brother Glen [​IMG]

    [ March 04, 2002, 04:11 PM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]
     
  14. Ray Berrian

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    Unconditional election was first brought to light by way of Augustine, the sainted man of God. John Calvin, reinvented it and then wrote it down in Calvin's Institutes. The Apostolic fathers never spoke of this fortress of Calvinistic doctrine. The theology of the Roman Catholic Church today does not refer to unconditional election. They are now more like Arminians. Only good people like Reformed Baptists, some Presbyterians and others keep this error before us.

    "Ray"
     
  15. Christopher

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    Did you live when Augustine lived? Or Calvin? I do not think so. Posting something from a history book or something you have heard does not even begin to interest me and probably no other Calvinists on this board. You want to spark our interest? Bring us scripture as to why Calvinism is an "error." All doctrines have some "bad apples" in their history, but you do not judge the doctrine by their lives, but by what the Bible says, not a history book.

    -Christopher
     
  16. tyndale1946

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    Ray if you had been reading all along when we started with the letter T I stated this is not Calvins doctrine. He is just the one that coined the term TULIP Jesus is the author of his own doctrine.

    Speaking of the Catholic Church they don't believe in this doctrine and they are 300 years to late as this is Apostolic doctrine passed on by the ultimate teacher of God... His only begotten Son Jesus Christ ... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  17. Brutus

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    In Romans 9 Paul stresses the unconditionality of election.For example,in verses 11-12 he describes the principle God used in the choice of Jacob over Esau:"Though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad,in order that God's purpose of election might continue,not because of works but because of His call,(Rebecca)was told,the elder will serve the younger."God's election is preserved in its unconditionality because it is transacted before we are born or have done any good or evil. ;)
     
  18. Brutus

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    Let me take some time here to say that some interpreters say that Romans 9 has nothing to do with the election of individuals to their eternal destinies.They say that the chapter only relates to the historical roles that are played by the peoples descended from Jacob and Esau.May I recommend "The Justification of God"by John Piper,which was written to investigate this very issue.It concludes that Rom.9 not only relates to the historical roles of whole peoples,but also to the eternal destinies of individuals,because among other reasons(Justification,pp.38-54),verses 1-5 pose a problem about the lostness of individual Isrealites which would be totally unaddressed if the chapter had nothing to say about individuals.
     
  19. Eric B

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    Verses 1-5 seem to be making a general comment about the lostness of the nation in general. Of course, it's individuals who are lost, but it's not individuals who are elected/preteritioned/decreed, etc. to be lost, but rather spiritual blindness over the nation (e.g 2 Cor 3:14). But individuals could still come out of this and repent.
     
  20. Brutus

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    The unconditionality of God's electing grace is stressed again in Rom.9:15-16,"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,and I will hace compassion on whom I have compassion.So it depends not upon man's will or exertion,but upon God's mercy."
     

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