The Very Elect

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by tyndale1946, Nov 21, 2002.

  1. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
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    Matthew 24:24 "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. "

    Who are or were the very elect?... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  2. Johnv

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    I did a quickie read through in greek: I don't think it's very as "very much", I think it's very as in "this very day".

    But I need someone else to confirm that for me.
     
  3. Rev. G

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    Intention of the Greek rendering (to this effect):

    "False Christs and false prophets will arise, and manifest incredible signs and wonders to the point that if it were possible, even the chosen ones themselves would be deceived."

    Rev. G
     
  4. npetreley

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    You see? I told you we're not all created equal. There are the not-so-elect, the sort-of-elect, the elect, the more-so-elect, the very-elect, the extremely-elect, and the dang-sure-you-betcha-elect. I had a feeling there was more to this system than meets the eye. ;)
     
  5. Pastor Larry

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    It is a "kai" (the most common conjunction in Greek) and would be the ascensive use of the kai meaning "even the elect."
     
  6. tyndale1946

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    Sorry brethren I see a first century application here... Very elect is there for a reason and I believe it applied to a specific group of individuals! All this happened in the early church and biblical and secular history prove the same!... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  7. GH

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    A WORD TO THE ELECT

    by Anne Bronte (1820-1849)

    YOU may rejoice to think yourselves secure;
    You may be grateful for the gift divine­
    That grace unsought, which made your black hearts pure,
    And fits your earth-born souls in Heaven to shine.

    But, is it sweet to look around, and view
    Thousands excluded from that happiness
    Which they deserved, at least, as much as you,­
    Their faults not greater, nor their virtues less?

    And, wherefore should you love your God the more,
    Because to you alone his smiles are given;
    Because he chose to pass the many o'er,
    And only bring the favoured few to Heaven?

    And, wherefore should your hearts more grateful prove,
    Because for ALL the Saviour did not die?
    Is yours the God of justice and of love?
    And are your bosoms warm with charity?

    Say, does your heart expand to all mankind?
    And, would you ever to your neighbor do­
    The weak, the strong, the enlightened, and the blind­
    As you would have your neighbor do to you?

    And, when you, looking on your fellow-men,
    Behold them doomed to endless misery,
    How can you talk of joy and rapture then?­
    May God withhold such cruel joy from me!

    That none deserve eternal bliss I know;
    Unmerited the grace in mercy given:
    But, none shall sink to everlasting woe,
    That have not well deserved the wrath of Heaven.

    And, oh! there lives within my heart
    A hope, long nursed by me;
    (And, should its cheering ray depart,
    How dark my soul would be!)

    That as in Adam all have died,
    In Christ shall all men live;
    And ever round his throne abide,
    Eternal praise to give.

    That even the wicked shall at last
    Be fitted for the skies;
    And, when their dreadful doom is past,
    To life and light arise.

    I ask not, how remote the day,
    Nor what the sinners' woe,
    Before their dross is purged away;
    Enough for me, to know

    That when the cup of wrath is drained,
    The metal purified,
    They'll cling to what they once disdained,
    And live by Him that died.

    =================================================

    Grace to the nth degree:)

    All glory and honor to you Almighty Father. \o/
     
  8. KenH

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    I assume you are an old-fashioned Universalist?

    Ken
     
  9. Rev. G

    Rev. G
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    Is yours the God of justice and of love?
    YES!
    St. Paul answers this question as it is asked in regard to election:
    Romans 9:14 - "What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!"

    In regard to His love:
    "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world...in love" - Ephesians 1:4

    And are your bosoms warm with charity?
    YES! Especially at Christmas! God commands us to be charitable to our enemies, just as He is (Matthew 5:43-48). The Scriptures declare, "Therefore, as the ELECT of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness..." (Colossians 3:12). The Apostle Paul declared that if we did not have charity / love, we have nothing (1 Corinthians 13:1-13).

    Say, does your heart expand to all mankind?
    YES! See previous statement. [​IMG] In retrospect, consider the "group" that first did foreign missions, who founded the modern missionary movement, etc., etc. - the "Elect" who believed in election.

    And, would you ever to your neighbor do­
    The weak, the strong, the enlightened, and the blind­ As you would have your neighbor do to you?
    YES! We've already covered this. [​IMG]

    And, when you, looking on your fellow-men,
    Behold them doomed to endless misery,
    How can you talk of joy and rapture then?­
    May God withhold such cruel joy from me!

    I don't know who is doomed by their own willful rebellion, and whom God will graciously save, so as I look upon the lost I share the Gospel with them all! I can speak of joy and rapture, not because there will be lost people, but because God has been gracious. Although some on this board speak of "Calvinists" "rejoicing" in the wrath of God being poured out on those who have rejected Christ, if they maintain that God has perfect omniscience, they are in the same predicament. If God knew people would reject Him no matter what He tried, and still permitted them to be born to face a Christless eternity, then He was "unloving" for doing so. How can an "Arminian" rejoice in Hell? If one were to write a poem from that perspective, would the lines read:

    "The continuous rebels, the unfaithful crowds,
    Why didn't they listen to Your voice so loud?
    But I am different, oh so wise,
    to choose your grace and leave the lies,
    I was chosen because I chose,
    and I thank You God that I am not like those."

    OR

    "I once was lost, but then I found You,
    I sought because my heart was true.
    Blinded? No! I saw you clearly,
    Because my choice is what You hold dearly.
    Imprisoned? Never! I was born free,
    And because of this I thank Thee!"

    I don't think any self-respecting "Arminian" would write such lyrics, yet people believe that the caricature of "Calvinism" can be used to malign the doctrines of grace. How sad!

    [ November 21, 2002, 11:06 PM: Message edited by: Rev. G ]
     
  10. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    That all happened in the first century?? Hardly. [​IMG]
    But since this is not the place to talk about preterism, it would probably be better suited elsewhere don't you think??
     
  11. tyndale1946

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    I happen to believe that the very elect were the Apostles... You disageee fine but the connotation very sets these apart from the other elect. Many were deceived in the early church but not the Apostles who were elected and chosen to that work!... I will leave it at that and let others determine the interpretation!... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  12. KenH

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    Does any version besides the KJV say "very elect"? Even the NKJV only has "elect". So should the word "very" even be in that verse?

    Ken
     
  13. npetreley

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    IMO something should be there, since the Greek "kai" is there for emphasis. But also IMO, that's all it is -- emphasis. In other words, "The deception will be so powerful that, if it were possible, even those people 'in-the-know' would be deceived. But since it is impossible, they won't be deceived."
     
  14. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    The problem is that the events of Matthew 24 did not happen then. While there were many deceived, there are also many being deceived today. The historical record does not show the fulfillment of those events during the apostles lifetime. In fact, the last living apostle John, at the end of the first century, said those events were still to come. So I don't see how "elect" can be limited to the apostles. I think the elect there means those chosen to salvation.
     
  15. GH

    GH
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    Rev. G,

    How sad! You wrote.

    May God turn your sadness into joy.

    And brother Ken - yes I'm a universalist (which was the prevailing doctrine of the early church - any reliable study of the early church will show this).

    God's grace and mercy extends as far as the curse is found. His love covers a multitude of sins. His grace superabounds!

    I Believe

    I believe in Jesus Christ, Son of God, Savior of the world.

    I believe He died, was buried and rose again on the third day.

    I believe in the blood of Christ shed for the remission of my sins.

    I Believe

    I believe Jesus is come in the flesh. Jesus is my Lord, Savior and King. Jesus is my everything!

    I believe and testify “that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.” (1 John 4:14)

    I know and believe that Jesus is “the Christ, the Savior of the world.” (John 4:42)

    I Believe

    I believe that “ this is good and acceptable in the sight of our God our saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus: Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.” (1 Tim. 2:3-6, KJV)

    I believe Jesus “is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.” (1 John 2:2)

    I believe that Jesus “did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.” (John 12:47)

    I Believe

    I believe I see “Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.” (Heb. 2:9)

    I believe that “love never fails.” (1 Cor. 13:8)

    I believe “with God nothing is impossible.” (Luke 1:37)

    I Believe

    I believe “this is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance. For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, Who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. These things command and teach.” (1 Tim. 4:9-11)

    I believe “that at/in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.” (Phil. 2:10:11)

    I believe “God was pleased to have all fullness dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things on earth and in heaven, by making peace through His blood, shed on the cross. Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in His sight, without blemish and free from accusation.” (Col. 1:19, 21, 22)

    I Believe

    I believe in “the restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.” (Acts 3:21)

    I believe that the “good tidings of great joy will be to all people.” (Luke 2:10)

    I believe that believers in Christ are “born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.” (John 1:13)

    I Believe

    I believe that God appointed Jesus “heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe.” (Heb. 1:2)

    I believe that “no one can come to Christ unless the Father who sent Him draws him.” (John 6:44)

    I believe that “as God gave Jesus authority over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as God gave Him.” (John 17:2)

    I Believe

    I believe the Father “has given all things into Jesus’ hands.” (John 13:3)

    I believe that Jesus “was the true light which gives light to every man who come into the world.” (John 1:9)

    I believe that “just as the result of one trespass was condemnation of all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.” (Rom. 5:18)

    I Believe

    I believe that Jesus is “able even to subdue all things to Himself.” (Phil. 3:21)

    I believe that Jesus came “that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will.” (Eph. 1:10, 11)

    I believe “the Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering towards us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” (2 Peter 3:9)

    I Believe

    I believe that “God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And He has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors as though God were making His appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: be reconciled to God.” (2 Cor. 5:19, 20)

    I believe that “all the nations shall be blessed.” (Gal 3:8)

    I believe that “the Bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives Life to the world.” (John 6:33)

    I Believe

    I believe that Jesus commanded us to be like Himself: “Love your enemies, bless those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven.” (Matt. 5:44, 45)

    I believe Jesus when He said: “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw (draw/drag/implel in the Greek) all mankind unto Myself.”

    I believe that “creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope, because creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.” (Rom. 8:20, 21)

    I Believe

    I believe “the Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hands.” (John 3:35)

    I believe “since by man came death, by man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all died, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.” (1 Cor. 15:22)

    I believe Jesus “is the image of the invisible God, the first born over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.” (Co. 1:15, 16)

    I Believe

    I believe that “all shall know the Lord, from the least of them to the greatest of them.” (Heb. 8:11)

    I believe “the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.” (Titus 2:11)

    I believe I am NOT to “repay evil for evil.” (Rom. 12:17) Will God ask me to do what He Himself will NOT do?

    I Believe

    I believe “if anyone’s work which he has built endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved yet so as through fire.” (1 Cor. 3:14, 15)

    I believe “of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen” (Rom. 11:36)

    I believe “all Israel will be saved.” (Rom. 11:26)

    I Believe

    I believe “Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.” (2 Cor. 5:14)

    I believe that “the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.” (1 Cor. 11:3)

    I believe that “all nations shall come and worship You, for your judgments have been made manifested.” (Rev. 15:4)

    I Believe

    I believe that “when God’s judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.” (Isaiah 26:9)

    I believe that “mercy shall triumph over judgment.” (James 2:13)

    I believe that “where sin abounded, grace abounded much more.” (Rom. 5:20)

    I Believe

    I believe “every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: blessing and honor and glory and power be to Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, forever and ever.” (Rev. 5:13)

    I believe that if we REALLY knew the Lord, we “would not have condemned the guiltless.” (Matt. 12:7)

    I believe “ God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the gentiles, which is Christ in you the hope of glory. Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.” (Col. 1: 27, 28)

    I Believe

    I believe “all nations whom God has made will come and worship before Him” (Psalm 86:9)

    I believe God’s “mercy endures forever.” (1 Chron. 16:34)

    I believe God’s Spirit “will be poured out on all flesh.” (Joel 2:28)

    I Believe

    I believe that God beckons us: “Come, and let us return to the Lord, for He has torn, but He will heal us. He has stricken, but He will bind us. After 2 days, He will revive us. On the third day He will raise us up that we may live in His sight.” (Hosea 6:1, 2)

    I believe “the Lord had made bare His Holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.” (Isaiah 52:10)

    I believe “the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together; for the mouth of the Lord has spoken.” (Isaiah 40:5)

    I Believe

    I believe God will “open His hand and satisfy the desire of every living thing.” (Psalm 145:16)

    I believe that God is “gracious in all His works.” (Psalm 145:17)

    I believe “the earth is the Lord’s and all its fullness, the world and those who dwell therein.” (Psalm 24:1)

    I Believe

    I believe “all the kings of the earth shall praise you, O Lord, when they hear the words of your mouth.” (Psalm 138:4)

    I believe God “reveals Himself by those who did not ask for Him: He was found by those who did not seek Him.” (Isaiah 65:1)

    I believe “the Lord is gracious and full of compassion, slow to anger and great in mercy. The Lord is good to all, and His tender mercies are over all His works. All your works shall praise you, O Lord.” (Psalm 145:8-10)

    I Believe

    I believe “all the ends of the world shall remember and turn to the Lord, and all the families of the nations shall worship before You. All those who go down to the dust (death) shall bow before You.” (Psalm 22:27, 29)

    I believe “O You Who hear prayer, to you all flesh will come. Iniquities prevail against me; as for our transgressions, you will provide atonement for them.” (Psalm 65:2-4)

    I believe “through the greatness of your power your enemies shall submit themselves to you. All the earth shall worship You and sing praises to you.” (Psalm 66:3, 4)

    I Believe

    I believe that “through the Lord’s mercies we are not consumed, because His compassions fail not. They are new every morning. Great is your faithfulness.” (Lam. 3:21-24)

    I believe that “the Lord will not cast off forever. Though He causes grief, yet He will show compassion according to the multitude of His mercies.” (Lam. 3:31, 32)

    I believe “there is no God besides Me, a just God and Savior; There is none besides Me. Look to Me and be saved, all you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. I have sworn by Myself; the word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that to me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall take an oath. He shall say, surely in the Lord I have righteousness and strength. To Him men shall come, and all shall be ashamed who are incensed against Him. In the Lord all the descendants of Israel shall be justified and shall glory.” (Isaiah 45:21-25)

    I Believe

    I believe “in this mountain the Lord of Hosts will make for all people a feast of choice pieces, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of well-refined wines on the lees. And he shall destroy on this mountain the surface of the covering cast over all nations. He will swallow up death forever, and the Lord will wipe away tears from all faces.” (Isaiah 25:6-8)

    I believe “all the nations of the earth shall be blessed.” (Gen. 18:18)

    I believe “all the families of the earth shall be blessed.” (Gen. 12:3, 28:14)

    I Believe

    I believe “it shall come to pass the saying that is written: ‘death is swallowed up in victory. Oh, Death, where is your sting Oh, Hell (Hades) where is your victory.’ The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Cor. 15:54-58)

    I believe “it is finished.” (John 19:30)

    "In order that in adoration of the Name of Jesus every knee of worshippers will bow themselves and openly acknowledge with joy, in celebration and praise, that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. This profession and confession of His Lordship shall be open and freely proclaimed, acknowledged joyfully by beings in the heavens, of those on the earth and those in the underworld." Phil. 2:10,11

    All glory, praise and honor to YOU, ALMIGHTY FATHER. \o/
     

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