The Very Pupose of Tongues/Affirm Apostles

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by plain_n_simple, Jan 28, 2015.

  1. plain_n_simple

    plain_n_simple
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    A believer wrote the "very reason" for tongues was to "affirm apostles"...

    You are right, that is one purpose for tongues, affirming the Apostles.

    But it is not the only purpose of tongues.

    To edify the church, and to edify the believer are some other purposes for tongues.

    The believer can be edified (not only) in two ways, with and in the body of Christ, and his own spirit which is joined with Christ.

    Even if the 9 gifts have ceased, would there still be a purpose for edifying the church and believer today? Of course. The Father does not give gifts to sons and daughters to help them and then retract it. Seems like a cruel God who would take back the weapons He gave us to fight evil and win the lost. Military Budget cut?

    I'll agree for now that the 9 gifts were only to confirm Apostles, establish the early church, and would stop after the Bible came. In defining the word "perfect" to mean the bible, I can see how many arrive at this, His word is perfect.

    Can we apply tongues in another way and still claim the 9 have ceased? For a minute you could.

    There is more than one description/application/purpose for tongues in scripture, I believe there are four...

    "diverse kinds of tongues" can also mean diverse methods/applications/purposes as well as meaning the 120 spoke in diverse foreign languages. Both statements can be true along with speaking and interpretation. There are diverse purposes for tongues.

    "And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;

    "Believers will speak with new tongues" is grouped with other sign miracles in Mark, so it is understandable how most people assume that tongues has only one application/purpose when looking at this verse and dismiss others applications. I am aware some claim 9-20 were not in the original text, for now we'll include them.

    Yes that can and does apply to the early church, but this statement alone does not put "believers" in a set time for speaking tongues. It can also apply to praying in tongues, as well as outward tongues. It simply says believers, as in "whosoever believes". When I am praying, I am also speaking.

    Even if I say the gifts stopped, I can still see another application of tongues, for a believer, God edifying me in the Spirit, with my spirit.

    To edify the new believer...to build up, strengthen

    To build up what? Your Spirit and The Holy Spirit that lives inside you since you became a believer. Jesus in you and you in Jesus.

    Why does our Spirit need built up or strengthened? Cause it died and is newborn. Because it is weak as a young babe and is joining with the Spirit of Christ in you. Growing to the full stature of Christ, faith to faith, grace to grace.

    How is it built up? Many ways, reading scripture, a relationship with Jesus, faith, grace, praying how Jesus said in a known word, "having our faith built up", many descriptions the Word gives, and also praying in tongues, which is praying in the spirit.

    This is one application/description for tongues, in prayer, privately in the Spirit. It's purpose is not to confirm anyone but the believer. You cannot show it off.


    "For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays..."

    "For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries."


    Scripture also confirms and edifies, but cannot take the place of the Holy Spirit. At the same time, we shouldn't have the Holy Spirit without scripture if it is available to us. They go hand in hand confirming each other.


    So if praying in tongues does not exist because the 9 gifts have ceased, then neither does wisdom, or faith, or knowledge.

    Yet many claim faith, wisdom, and knowledge the loudest.

    So then as with tongues, there must be other applications for wisdom that will apply if the gift of wisdom has ceased. Or you don't have it, and cannot get it.

    As with tongues, there must be other applications for knowledge that will apply if the gift of knowledge has ceased. Or you don't have it, and cannot get it.

    As with tongues, there must be other applications for faith that will apply if the gift of faith has ceased. Or you don't have it, and cannot get it.

    Paul said he spoke in tongues more than them all, "yet in the church" would rather speak 5 words known instead of 10,000 in tongues. But yet he just said he spoke tongues more than anybody! How can he speak tongues more than anybody but rather not speak tongues with 10,000? Both must be true statements and can only be two diverse applications of tongues. This distinguishes praying in tongues(more than you all) from public speaking in tongues(10,000).

    As evidenced in his anointed teaching and clear relationship with the Holy Spirit, his inner man was so built up in the spirit because he understood that he did not know what to pray for. He could deny himself to become like Him, by letting the Holy Spirit pray for him. He could pray without ceasing because the prayer was led by the Spirit, not his mental understanding, yet.

    The Spirit searched Paul's heart and knew what he needed. Paul made the physical vocals sounds with the Spirit giving the unknown words pronunciation. "Death and life are in the power of the tongue, And those who love it will eat its fruit." Satan does not know what the Holy Spirit prays for us. God will not allow it. Our spirits are righteous in Him, He is our refuge.

    Praying in the spirit is not praying words from the mind. Whether mental or vocal, the mind is flesh and is repenting continually as we "take on the mind of Christ." Satan is constantly telling our minds lies. We repent (change our minds) and believe as we walk. Until the mind gets perfected and is submitting to the spirit, it's not a good place to pray from and be able to claim it is spirit. Whether silently in the mind or audibly with English words, the mind does not know what to pray. When the Spirit does tell your mind what English words to pray, your mind is still praying, your spirit is not. God wants spirit. There is only one way to pray in the Spirit and it is not from the mind.

    Our spirit was in control of our beings in the Garden of Eden. God is spirit, and made us like Him. Our spirit being joined with the Father's Spirit, ruled our minds and bodies. When our minds listened to Satan and gave in, our spirit died, and was from then on ruled by our minds. Satan did not appeal to our spirits to eat the fruit. He couldn't because they were joined with God's spirit, and God cannot be tempted. Now that we struggle, our flesh against our new spirit, our worldly minds not yet perfected are also at times against our spirits. Our minds cannot pray the things of the spirit because our minds are not yet fully conformed to the Spirit of Christ. We can pray from the heart/mind in all sincerity but the effectiveness is measured with how righteous the heart/mind have become. It is our spirit that is first declared righteous, not our minds. The best place to pray to God from is our spirit. We cannot pray from the spirit unless we are speaking in tongues. The mind vocal or mental cannot speak things of the Spirit.

    Praying in the spirit grows you into Christ, to do the things Christ did and even greater, through Him. If God took away the gifts, He sure didn't take away decease, demon possession, poverty, and much more.

    It has nothing to do with salvation to eternity,
    the believer can go to heaven without any gifts. But his prayer life will be weak, unsure, and will have very few results....people say it all the time, and well meaning too, "I'm praying for you". They feel helpless in response to a fatal disease, "I'm praying for you" really means "I hope you get better". That is why there are very very few testimonies about answered prayers in real life bad situations. Faith is weak, victory is rare. The person means well, but is not equipped for a spiritual fight for themselves let alone another. When confronted with a miracle, they feel less than adequate and must dismiss the possibility or assign what was Gifts from God as now the Tools of Satan. "And they overcame him (Satan) by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death."

    A believer can stand on the bible and make careful doctrinal statements about his declaration for being saved and the like(nothing wrong there), but by itself there is no evidence, or edification for the church or the believer. Making doctrinal statements and arriving at those positions may be guided by the Holy Spirit, but they are only statements, it is only the start. You are not led of the Spirit with statements. The Spirit is a living being, and He moves, we follow. So if the gifts are over, you cannot pray in the Spirit, because the only way to pray in the Spirit, is to pray in tongues.

     
  2. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
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    The tongues issue aside this is complete error.
     
  3. blessedwife318

    blessedwife318
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    My husband made a good point when we were reading through Acts about Tongues. (Backstory he does not believe that the Apostolic Gifts have ceased, or at least he does not see any Biblical Support for that idea) He pointed out that it was always very clear when people were speaking in Tongues and that it was the Holy Spirit. He also noted that it always happened as a new group was brought into the Covenant of Grace. The Samaritans and then the Gentiles. He then pointed out that we do not see this today. Even when he went to a more Charismatic Church (Sovereign Grace) he never saw it happen or heard of it happening. So he grudgingly admitted (This had been an ongoing debate, all in good fun for us) that Censationalist have a point about not seeing Tongues in operation today. He will not be dogmatic about it because he can't point to a Bible Verse but he admits that he can not give one example or Biblical Tongues in use today giving weight to the Censationalist viewpoint.
     
  4. blessedwife318

    blessedwife318
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    This is absolutely False.
     
  5. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
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    I do not hold to the idea that the Bible declares the gift as ceased. Neither does the Bible declare that the office if Apostle has ceased. However with the office of Apostle there is no one living qualified for the office because you have to have been a witness to the death and resurrection of Christ. Gifts may not be in operation even though scripture makes no case for that. To try and suggest it does is to make a bad argument just for the sake of defending against a false doctrine.
     
  6. blessedwife318

    blessedwife318
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    Agreed. My husband is really big on being able to make Biblical Arguments before making a dogmatic statement. Its one of the things I really respect and admire about him.
     

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