The virgin birth and the miracles of Jesus

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Sir Ed, Mar 21, 2002.

  1. Sir Ed

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    Just to clear up any confusion, lies, or misunderstandings that may have been posted on this board by others.

    THE ELCA (EVANGALICAL LUTHERAN CHURCH IN AMERICA) BELIEVES IN THE VIRGIN BIRTH AND THE MIRACLES OF JESUS AS TOLD IN THE HOLY SCRIPTURES.

    It is both sad and absurd that I have to post this, but I cannot stand by and let others bear false witness against this denomination.

    Further, rest assured, that if the ELCA did not believe in such things, I (and the rest of my church) would leave the ELCA immediately.
     
  2. GraceSaves

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    I believe in God, the Father almighty,
    creator of heaven and earth.

    I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.
    He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit
    and born of the virgin Mary.
    He suffered under Pontius Pilate,
    was crucified, died, and was buried.
    He descended into hell.*
    On the third day he rose again.
    He ascended into heaven,
    and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
    He will come again to judge the living and the dead.

    I believe in the Holy Spirit,
    the holy catholic Church,
    the communion of saints,
    the forgiveness of sins,
    the resurrection of the body,
    and the life everlasting. Amen.

    ---------
    This is the Apostle's Creed, taken from the ELCA website. Check the bold. They adhere to the creeds, so how can the church be against the virgin birth?

    http://www.elca.org/co/creeds/creedap.html
     
  3. tulpje

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    [ March 22, 2002, 12:39 PM: Message edited by: tulpje ]
     
  4. GraceSaves

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    So, the WELS church is in no way infallible, but you trust in everything they say. In fact, every issue you go back to the WELS for an explanation. It's fine to trust in your church, but when you fight so adamently that no church is infallible, I don't see how you can justify condemning another church solely on the "research" your church has done on them.
     
  5. tulpje

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    Yes Grace. Every Sunday when I was in the ELCA we recited the Aposltes creed, however, they don't believe in it. When I was sitting in my pastor's office telling him I was leaving ELCA for the WELS-I told him it was because they were teaching that you could be saved as a Muslim or a jew and that we all are worshiping the same God. He asked me how do I know that. I took out the athanasian creed and read it to him and said, "See! you can neither confuse them or seperate them." He said to me, "You can't base a religion on a creed."

    Now this absolutely my last post on the subject.

    [ March 21, 2002, 02:46 PM: Message edited by: tulpje ]
     
  6. tulpje

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    [ March 22, 2002, 12:39 PM: Message edited by: tulpje ]
     
  7. Sir Ed

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    Well, there you go again lying tulpje. First, Christian Dogmatics is not THE primary textbook in ELCA seminaries. Secondly, even if it was, it is not ELCA doctrine. I suppose in your mind if someone studies a history textbook that discusses nazism they are automatically a Nazi. If you are basing your understanding of ELCA doctrine on a textbook not written for that purpose, you are logically flawed in your understanding.

    Next, please don't tell me that I don't believe the words of the Apostle's Creed. Once again, please don't bear false witness against my denomination and don't bear false witness against me.

    Finally, the Lutheran denomination is based on Holy Scripture; not a creed and definitely, not the disingeniousness of the WELS website and your out and out lies.
     
  8. Sir Ed

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    Moderators, this is your board so do as you wish. However, I would love for tulpje (if she insists on making these outlandish statements) to have the opportunity to back them up.

    I will, however, admit that I am angry right now. Thus, I will not post on this topic for a while. I just had to share the truth.

    [ March 21, 2002, 02:55 PM: Message edited by: Sir Ed ]
     
  9. tulpje

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    [ March 22, 2002, 12:40 PM: Message edited by: tulpje ]
     
  10. Sir Ed

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    What you posted is based on a few lines from Christian Dogmatics and from a few books that are published by a publishing house associated with the ELCA.

    You have provided NOTHING in regard to ELCA doctrine on these issues. Heck, you haven't even provided even any ELCA statements at all on these issues. What you have done is regurgitate two paragraphs from the WELS website.

    [ March 21, 2002, 03:10 PM: Message edited by: Sir Ed ]
     
  11. GraceSaves

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    Tulpje,

    You do know that there are misinformed and undereducated pastors and priests out there, right? I remember hearing of a survey of Lutherans in Denmark where many of the pastors could not recite the 10 commandments.

    Because your pastor made a seemingly illogical statement does not mean he speaks for the ELCA body. The BEST you could offer is that perhaps the ELCA is open to more liberal interpretation of Scripture. However, you have absolutely no justification for saying that they recite the creed but "don't believe it." I guess you went door to door to all the ELCA members worldwide and asked? Or I guess you talked to the President of the synod then, right, and got the official word from him?
     
  12. Mrs C

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    Sir Ed -

    Kudos to you sir for keeping your cool!

    I am astounded by the assertion that the ELCA denys the Virgin Birth and the miracles of Jesus. I can't imagine a more intentionally inflammatory statement. When last I attended an ELCA congregation (I started attending my Catholic parish in January) there were a great many sermons whose focal point was the Virgin Birth and the miracles of our Saviour, Jesus.

    In fact, it was the teaching I had received in both the LCMS and the ELCA that is making my conversion to the RCC so easily (in relative terms). I haven't a lot to "unlearn".

    The assertions on the WELS site that the ELCA denies these things, is in my experience, categorically false.

    Again, I applaud your cool and collected way of making your point in the face of such blatantly biased informtaion from the WELS site, bias that in my opinion borders upon dishonesty.

    Peace be with you,

    Carole
     
  13. tulpje

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    [ March 22, 2002, 12:40 PM: Message edited by: tulpje ]
     
  14. Mrs C

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    From the ELCA in their own words. Not copied from a text book or another denomination/Synod's website.

    http://www.elca.org/co/faith.html

    Confession of Faith of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (from the Constitution of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America)


    1. This church confesses the Triune God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

    2. This church confesses Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and the Gospel as the power of God for the salvation of all who believe

    - Jesus Christ is the Word of God incarnate, through whom everything was made and through whose life, death, and resurrection God fashions a new creation.
    - The proclamation of God's message to us as both Law and Gospel is the Word of God, revealing judgment and mercy through word and deed, beginning with the Word in creation, continuing in the history of Israel, and centering in all its fullness in the person and work of Jesus Christ.
    - The canonical Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are the written Word of God. Inspired by God's Spirit speaking through their authors, they record and announce God's revelation centering in Jesus Christ. Through them God's Spirit speaks to us to create and sustain Christian faith and fellowship for service in the world.

    3. This church accepts the canonical Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments as the inspired Word of God and the authoritative source and norm of its proclamation, faith, and life.

    4. This church accepts the Apostles', Nicene, and Athanasian Creeds as true declarations of the faith of this church.

    5. This church accepts the Unaltered Augsburg Confession as a true witness to the Gospel, acknowledging as one with it In faith and doctrine all churches that likewise accept the teachings of the Unaltered Augsburg Confession.

    6. This church accepts the other confessional writings in the Book of Concord, namely, the Apology of the Augsburg Confession, the Smalcald Articles and the Treatise, the Small Catechism, the Large Catechism, and the Formula of Concord, as further valid interpretations of the faith of the Church.

    7. This church confesses the Gospel, recorded in the Holy Scriptures and confessed in the ecumenical creeds and Lutheran confessional writings, as the power of God to create and sustain the Church for God's mission in the world.

    From the "horse's mouth" so-to-speak.
     
  15. GraceSaves

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    What do I know about what, Tulpje? Unknowledgeable pastors are not demoninationally specific. What point are you trying to make, or is it just me, and there was no point in you saying that?
     
  16. Mrs C

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    I believe she may be trying to say that since you aren't Lutheran you have no place in the conversation. The insinuation seemed to be (in my personal opinion, of course) that if you are not part of the ELCA you can't possibly know what the ELCA believes ... or some other equally foolish nonsense.

    Carole
     
  17. tulpje

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    [ March 22, 2002, 12:34 PM: Message edited by: tulpje ]
     
  18. GraceSaves

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    Sorry you mentioned it or sorry that you're being proven wrong?

    I'm being totally honest here; do not make accusations that you aren't willing to stick by. Otherwise people just get their feelings hurt for no reason. You said something that we believe is not true, then you bash us for telling you so, and now you back out. Not cool.
     
  19. Chemnitz

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    Wow, thats all I have to say is that even in our most extreme moments the LCMS has never officially called the ELCA a non-christian church.
     
  20. tulpje

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    [ March 22, 2002, 12:35 PM: Message edited by: tulpje ]
     

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