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The virgin birth and the miracles of Jesus

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Sir Ed, Mar 21, 2002.

  1. Mrs C

    Mrs C New Member

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    Have you ever visited the WELS Q&A site? I haven't read the whole thing, by any stretch of the imagination, but they are pretty adamant that they are the only church around teaching the true fullness of the Gospel.

    I don't think their Q&A acknowledges that there is any truth taught in any church outside the WELS. It is actually kind of frightening when you read it.

    Carole
     
  2. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves New Member

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    And from what I've read, the new president of the synod has taken back some of those statements and is working on trying to have better relations with the ELCA.
     
  3. Sir Ed

    Sir Ed New Member

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    Please don't tell me you think its ok to tell such untruths as long as no one is offended and no one will question you on it. If so, your tactics here are just getting more and more sad.
     
  4. Chemnitz

    Chemnitz New Member

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    Tulpje, Barry must be a God then cause um he has been dead for some time(he did make a statement several yrs ago). We just voted it as official in convention this last summer. We said they were an unorthodox Lutheran church. In other words we don't recognize them as an orthodox(right teaching)Lutheran, but that they are still a Christian church. It equates to a strong statement saying we are not in fellowship but we still see them as brothers and sisters in Christ, not as a group of pagans.

    [ March 21, 2002, 04:20 PM: Message edited by: Godmetal ]
     
  5. tulpje

    tulpje Guest

    [ March 22, 2002, 12:35 PM: Message edited by: tulpje ]
     
  6. Chemnitz

    Chemnitz New Member

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    GraceSaves, then you don't understand the workings of the synodical governing body. I have said this before. The Pres. of the LCMS is alot like the Gov. of Texas. He has no real power. Only a convention can retract any official position of the synod, not a president. His job is mainly chief arbitrator. The statement also made provisos for continuing communication with the ELCA in the hopes that the ELCA will come back to orthodox Lutheran teachings. It will probably take next to forever because there is a lot of bad blood between the two synods but there is still hope.

    [ March 21, 2002, 04:27 PM: Message edited by: Godmetal ]
     
  7. Mrs C

    Mrs C New Member

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    Please don't tell me you think its ok to tell such untruths as long as no one is offended and no one will question you on it. If so, your tactics here are just getting more and more sad.</font>[/QUOTE]Sir Ed,

    I am willing to bet that if the misinformation presented were about the Wisconsin Synod there wouldn't be a call to "forget I said it" and the "I didn't know anyone would be offended" line would hold no water either.

    In fact, I believe it has been sufficiently proven that some people don't really care who they offend, so long as they get to see their name on a post, as several insulting and misleading comments have been made regarding several other denominations.

    Carole
     
  8. tulpje

    tulpje Guest

    [ March 22, 2002, 12:37 PM: Message edited by: tulpje ]
     
  9. Sir Ed

    Sir Ed New Member

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    No, they are not. You can't be this dense. Those publications are published by Augsburg Fortress. Augsburg Fortress is not the ELCA. However, it least you are no longer equating these "quotes" with ELCA doctrine.

    No, they and you ignore facts in order to twist the truth.
    Hopefully, they value it more than you do.
     
  10. Walguy

    Walguy Member

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    As a former ELCA Lutheran, I'd like to wander into the line of fire for a moment to share a few observations which may (or may not) help find a little common ground here.
    First, the official position of the ELCA is still that the Bible is the inspired word of God, meaning that it can basically be trusted. The Virgin Birth and the miracles of Christ are still part of the official beliefs.
    Further, even in the worst case scenario specific doctrines of the parent organization are not considered binding on every individual member. Rank and File ELCA Lutherans are allowed to disagree and remain members in good standing.
    That being said, there is a strong liberal tendency in the hierarchy of the ELCA that is trying very hard to gradually move away from the traditional view of Scripture and replace it with very liberal theology and general political correctness. This is nothing new. It was carried over from the ALC and the LCA, the two primary synods that merged into the ELCA in 1988 (I'm less familiar with the third mergee, the AELC, so I'll leave them out of it). This tendency is also present in many other mainstream denominations these days.
    Most of the leadership of the ELCA is NOT committed to the Virgin Birth or the miracles of Christ (or the deity of Christ, or the authority of the Bible, or the bodily Resurrection of Christ, or... well, you get the idea). They would like nothing better then to steer the rank and file away from these 'antiquated' beliefs. However, like all liberals, they understand that if you try to implement the agenda all at once, the 'unwashed masses' rebel. So they work more slowly to convert people to their version of the truth.
    A good example of this was the releasing a few years ago of a 'Statement on Human Sexuality' for discussion among ELCA Lutherans. This statement took the first steps toward legitimizing homosexuality in the ELCA, as well as compromising the condemnation of pre-marital and extra-marital sex. The section on teen sexuality could have been copied out of a Planned Parenthood brochure. The statement was never adopted, of course, but it wasn't intended to be. It was submitted to plant seeds in the ELCA membership, to bring these things into the official discussion. They continue to be pushed forward, and are less controversial now than they were when the statement came out.
    It should be noted that the committee that was appointed to draft the statement was comprised of 16 or 17 liberals and one conservative (this is a typical example of the liberal concept of 'balance'). The ELCA leadership knew what kind of statement they wanted, and assembled a committee that was guaranteed to produce it.
    So what I'm trying to say is that it's unfair and untrue to say that ELCA Lutherans do not believe in the Virgin Birth and the miracles of Christ, or that the official doctrine of the ELCA does not support these things. I believe the majority of the rank and file members do, in fact, still believe them. However, it is VERY fair and accurate to say that most of the leadership (and many of the clergy at all levels) of the ELCA do not accept these things, and would not hesitate to change the official doctrine of the church if they thought they could do so without causing a mass exodus from the ELCA. Instead, they are working toward the day when the rank and file is willing to accept liberal theology and political correctness as the official doctrines of the church.
    Last year I made this a tiny bit easier for them by removing one more conservative, Bible-believing Christian from their ranks - me.
     
  11. Mrs C

    Mrs C New Member

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    My husband and I helped that cause in January by leaving our ELCA congregation to enter into the RCIA program of the Catholic Church!

    It is amazing to me how many members of the ELCA I know who ae leaving the Synod in an effort to help speed their way to this goal!

    It is really quite a shame.

    But, the fact remains, that for now the official position of the ELCA does NOT deny the Virgin Birth or the miracles of Jesus.

    Where they end up 5, 10, 15 or 20 years from now is another matter entirely.

    Carole
     
  12. tulpje

    tulpje Guest

    [ March 22, 2002, 12:31 PM: Message edited by: tulpje ]
     
  13. Sir Ed

    Sir Ed New Member

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    tulpje, thanks for repeating again what I've been saying since the beginning of this thread: Augsburg Fortress publishes for the ELCA.

    Please try to understand though that it publishes a great deal of other things for other people too. As an analogy, Ford may be the official car of the NFL, but that doesn't mean Ford only provides cars to the NFL.

    Once again, AUGSBURG FORTRESS IS NOT THE ELCA.

    walguy, I agree that is a major concern for the ELCA. However, I'm not sure if I'm at the point where I'm willing to toss around the word "most" when referring to the leadership as liberal on these issues. "Quite a few" and "too many" are terms I could definitely agree with though.

    [ March 21, 2002, 05:44 PM: Message edited by: Sir Ed ]
     
  14. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves New Member

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    But you have no qualms about telling about how the Catholic Church is run by the antiChrist. Heaven forbid your Church sin, when my church is of the devil himself! :rolleyes:
     
  15. tulpje

    tulpje Guest

    [ March 22, 2002, 12:31 PM: Message edited by: tulpje ]
     
  16. Sir Ed

    Sir Ed New Member

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    Mary, no doubt you wish to change the topic, but you don't have to do it three times! ;)
     
  17. tulpje

    tulpje Guest

    [ March 22, 2002, 12:33 PM: Message edited by: tulpje ]
     
  18. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves New Member

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    Please show me where Luther wrote, using the verse you always use, about the Papacy. Yes, Luther believed that the Pope was the antiChrist, but you refer to what the WELS believes about that. You have never quoted Luther himself. Try going to the source, Mary.
     
  19. tulpje

    tulpje Guest

    [ March 22, 2002, 12:33 PM: Message edited by: tulpje ]
     
  20. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves New Member

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    How wrong you are. You make the assertion, and on a board of discussion, you don't say it if you won't back it up. I have read the ENTIRE confessions multiple times, so, no, again, it is up to you to show, because YOU SAID LUTHER SAID SO. Quote him.
     
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