The Virgin Mary and Original Sin

Was the virgin Mary sinless , was she born in sin, or is there yet another possible option?

 

HP: Was she the biological mother of Christ? If so, as a sinner, how could she not transmit sin to Christ, if the the necessitated assumptions concerning original sin are indeed correct? (i.e., Sin lies in the constitution of the flesh as opposed to the will, therfore sin is trnasmitted by physical generation) Any thoughts?

 

HP: We will have to wait and hear from those espousing the notion of original sin in order to ascertain that info.

 

HP: I am having trouble following your reasoning. How was God able to protect Mary’s maternal genealogy from sin?

 

Genesis 12: IF he could protect Mary from original sin,

HP: If He protected her from original sin, was she a sinner from birth or sinless?

Certain beliefs carry with them logical ramifications. Original sin carries with it certain logical ramifications. I am trying to see if one is willing to swallow all the necessitated notions of their beliefs.

 

HP: Was every other teenager of her day born with original sin?

 

HP: How is a direct question mental gymnastics? Does not intellectual honesty demand the mind to answer the question I asked if one is willing to test their notion of original sin in the light of reason, or are we just supposed to accept it because it is dogma in most Churches?

Direct questions that demand direct answers are not games. They are an excellent way to test our beliefs to see if they are of the truth.

 

HP: How is original sin passed from parent to child? Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.

 

Good morning Brother Bob,
The import of this discussion is not whether one chooses to believe in original sin personally, but rather lies in the fact that so many denominations require such a belief for fellowship. They judge the worth of the individual, and what one will be allowed to participate in, according to beliefs such as this. They do not allow for freedom of thought among individuals to follow their God given reason and Scripture as shown to them by the Holy Spirit. It is simply, raise your right hand to these dogmas or we cannot accept you as a member or fellowship with you as we fellowship with each other.

What we should be able to find agreement in simply that all have sinned and are in need of a Savior. One creed that I appreciate states it like this. “All that come to the age of accountability, sin, and become guilty before God.” I like the straight forward simplicity of that statement. It speaks to truth, truth that circumvents the false notion that sin lies in the constitution of the flesh as Augustine introduced into church dogma, or that sin is transmitted, contrary to the Word of God, from father and mother to child. Scripture is clear. Every man is a sinner due to their own acts of disobedience to known commandments of God and not man is responsible for the sins of another, and that every man is accountable to God for their own sins just as you indicated to me. Such a statement rids us of the nonsensical notion that infants and those not moral agents are somehow guilty of violating God’s moral law when there is no law that judges their intents.

If churches and denominations followed the advice of Wesley on this issue, we most likely would not be having this discussion this morning. Here was his advice. (Wesley on Original sin.) “Our moral faculties have been distorted by the Fall, but `nothing is sin, strictly speaking, but a voluntary transgression of the known will of God'.
(Wesley on Liberty of Thought” ““The Scripture does not, that I remember, anywhere say, in express words, that the sin of Adam is imputed to his children; or, that the sins of believers are imputed to Christ; or, that the righteousness of Christ is imputed to believers: but the true meaning of these expressions is sufficiently found in several places of Scripture.” “Yet since these express words and phrases, , of the imputation of Adam’s sin to us, of our sins to Christ, and of Christ’s righteousness to us, are not plainly written in Scripture we should not impose it on every Christian, to use these very expressions. Let every one take his liberty, either of confining himself to strictly Scriptural language, or manifesting his sense of these plain Scriptural doctrines, in words and phrases of his own.”

Here are two others on Original sin.

Fox on being born in sin:George Fox, leader of the Quakers was quoted as saying, when men began to hide behind excuses such as “This is the way we were born.” He immediately sounded forth the truth that “Thou wast not born that way, but thou hat chosen that way!”

Joseph Bellamy on ability and sin” Joseph Bellamy, a contemporary of Jonathan Edwards, and used mightily of God, stated “Our impotency is not natural, but moral, and therefore instead of extenuating, does magnify and enhance our fault. The more unable to love God we are, the more are we to blame. Even as it was with the Jews; the greater contrariety there was in their hearts to their prophets, to Christ and His Apostles, the more vile and blameworthy were they. And in this light do the Scriptures constantly view the case. There is not one title in the Old Testament, or in the New, in the law or in the gospels that gives the least intimation of any deficiency in our natural faculties. The law requires no more than ALL OUR HEARTS, and never blames us for not having larger natural capacities”

We need to consider carefully the dogmas we require out of our brothers and sisters in the Lord. Topic such as the one I have introduced here I believe are crucial in order to take our dogmas out to their logical ends to see if they are of the truth, regardless of how ‘orthodox’ some ideas have become. It is not hard to see why these issue have became so imbedded into our thinking when one considers the methods and utter wickedness and tortures the church has implemented upon those in the past that dared take a stand against her stated dogmas. Yet another reason to praise the Lord for the freedoms He has allowed us to experience via the experiment of freedom we enjoy in these United States of America!

Pray for those fighting to retain freedom for ourselves and others. I would appreciate your prayers in particular for one of my sons, who has found it his duty to support that effort in the Middle East and is currently deployed. Thanks Brother Bob for your prayers and participation on this list.