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Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Heavenly Pilgrim, Jun 24, 2006.
Was the virgin Mary sinless , was she born in sin, or is there yet another possible option?
You mean because Jesus did not have the original sin, right?
I don't remember it so well but I once heard that the original sin is supposed to be transmitted by the man, is this possible? But maybe I am also wrong.
46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Savior.
--Luke 1:46-47 (KJV)
Mary was not sinless. If she were, why did she need a Savior?
HP: Was she the biological mother of Christ? If so, as a sinner, how could she not transmit sin to Christ, if the the necessitated assumptions concerning original sin are indeed correct? (i.e., Sin lies in the constitution of the flesh as opposed to the will, therfore sin is trnasmitted by physical generation) Any thoughts?
HP: We will have to wait and hear from those espousing the notion of original sin in order to ascertain that info.
Was Mary's mother born sinless? Her grandmother? Great-grandmother?
If God was capable of protecting Mary's maternal genealogy from sin, would He not be able to protect Jesus from sin? Therefore, Mary being sinless is neither necessary nor Biblical.:flower:
In His Infinite Wisdom God foreordained that in His Manifestation on earth as The Son, He would be protected from the taint or stain of original sin, thereafter living a sinless life. I wouldn't want it any other way!
HP: I am having trouble following your reasoning. How was God able to protect Mary’s maternal genealogy from sin?
I didn't say that he did. I said just the opposite. IF he could protect Mary from original sin, why could he not protect Jesus? He did. He protected Jesus in the womb. Not Mary, not her maternal lineage.
Remember who we are talking about here. GOD manifesting HIMSELF in the Person of Jesus Christ. If He can speak everything that exists into existence from outside of time and space, surely He can fashion protection for Himself, anywhere He wants to (as if He needed to!). His status as secure from original sin / sins is a given, not a topic for speculation!
Genesis 12: IF he could protect Mary from original sin,
HP: If He protected her from original sin, was she a sinner from birth or sinless?
Certain beliefs carry with them logical ramifications. Original sin carries with it certain logical ramifications. I am trying to see if one is willing to swallow all the necessitated notions of their beliefs.
Mary was like any other teenager of that day. Whatever was going on in her community, she was exposed to. Whatever her friends were thinking, she was thinking. Her life changed when she was informed that she would give birth to Our Savior, then went to Elizabeth to recite those precious words: "My soul doth magnify the Lord!" Awesome!
Read it again: IF IF IF He could protect.......... The assumption that some make is that he DID protect her from original sin. He did not. She was just like the rest of us. That doesn't take away anything from the woman that generations have called "blessed," for surely she was, and is.
HP: Was every other teenager of her day born with original sin?
I do not play games. Try that with someone else. I rely on 1 Corinthians 2:9-16, not mental gymnastics.
Read the Annunciation in Luke 1:27-35 carefully:
27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
There is only One who is sinless--Jesus Christ. Mary was NOT sinless, she needed a Savior (Luke 1:46-47). The Holy Ghost came upon Mary and the power of the Highest overshadowed her----Mary was simply a vessel used of God to bring the ONLY BEGOTTEN Son of God into the world. Mary's egg was NOT used--otherwise Jesus would have been tainted by original sin (Rom. 5:12).
She was a sinner, chosen by God, blessed among women to be the nourishing incubator and to deliver Jesus into this sinful world. The seed of God the Holy Spirit is without sin, and the blood of Jesus was without sin, as the life is in the blood. It is this blood, the blood of God that saves us, and Mary was chosen to deliver that Holy Child.
Jesus said His disciples are his mother, and calls her "woman". She is of Eve as are all women, and she did what women do. She delivers the seed that is placed into her, whether it is of man (which later she did), or of God. This is her lot in life, and she was a sinner saved by the "Son of God", just like all we sinners are.
HP: How is a direct question mental gymnastics? Does not intellectual honesty demand the mind to answer the question I asked if one is willing to test their notion of original sin in the light of reason, or are we just supposed to accept it because it is dogma in most Churches?
Direct questions that demand direct answers are not games. They are an excellent way to test our beliefs to see if they are of the truth.
HP: How is original sin passed from parent to child? Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.
Ever being is a creation of itself and not attached to the mother. The child inherited the sinful nature from Adam and not the mother. When it comes to sin no person has anything to do with another's sin but they will bear their own, in this case the natural death. Could the mother die in place of the child dying?
Good morning Brother Bob,
The import of this discussion is not whether one chooses to believe in original sin personally, but rather lies in the fact that so many denominations require such a belief for fellowship. They judge the worth of the individual, and what one will be allowed to participate in, according to beliefs such as this. They do not allow for freedom of thought among individuals to follow their God given reason and Scripture as shown to them by the Holy Spirit. It is simply, raise your right hand to these dogmas or we cannot accept you as a member or fellowship with you as we fellowship with each other.
What we should be able to find agreement in simply that all have sinned and are in need of a Savior. One creed that I appreciate states it like this. “All that come to the age of accountability, sin, and become guilty before God.” I like the straight forward simplicity of that statement. It speaks to truth, truth that circumvents the false notion that sin lies in the constitution of the flesh as Augustine introduced into church dogma, or that sin is transmitted, contrary to the Word of God, from father and mother to child. Scripture is clear. Every man is a sinner due to their own acts of disobedience to known commandments of God and not man is responsible for the sins of another, and that every man is accountable to God for their own sins just as you indicated to me. Such a statement rids us of the nonsensical notion that infants and those not moral agents are somehow guilty of violating God’s moral law when there is no law that judges their intents.
If churches and denominations followed the advice of Wesley on this issue, we most likely would not be having this discussion this morning. Here was his advice. (Wesley on Original sin.) “Our moral faculties have been distorted by the Fall, but `nothing is sin, strictly speaking, but a voluntary transgression of the known will of God'.
(Wesley on Liberty of Thought” ““The Scripture does not, that I remember, anywhere say, in express words, that the sin of Adam is imputed to his children; or, that the sins of believers are imputed to Christ; or, that the righteousness of Christ is imputed to believers: but the true meaning of these expressions is sufficiently found in several places of Scripture.” “Yet since these express words and phrases, , of the imputation of Adam’s sin to us, of our sins to Christ, and of Christ’s righteousness to us, are not plainly written in Scripture we should not impose it on every Christian, to use these very expressions. Let every one take his liberty, either of confining himself to strictly Scriptural language, or manifesting his sense of these plain Scriptural doctrines, in words and phrases of his own.”
Here are two others on Original sin.
Fox on being born in sin:George Fox, leader of the Quakers was quoted as saying, when men began to hide behind excuses such as “This is the way we were born.” He immediately sounded forth the truth that “Thou wast not born that way, but thou hat chosen that way!”
Joseph Bellamy on ability and sin” Joseph Bellamy, a contemporary of Jonathan Edwards, and used mightily of God, stated “Our impotency is not natural, but moral, and therefore instead of extenuating, does magnify and enhance our fault. The more unable to love God we are, the more are we to blame. Even as it was with the Jews; the greater contrariety there was in their hearts to their prophets, to Christ and His Apostles, the more vile and blameworthy were they. And in this light do the Scriptures constantly view the case. There is not one title in the Old Testament, or in the New, in the law or in the gospels that gives the least intimation of any deficiency in our natural faculties. The law requires no more than ALL OUR HEARTS, and never blames us for not having larger natural capacities”
We need to consider carefully the dogmas we require out of our brothers and sisters in the Lord. Topic such as the one I have introduced here I believe are crucial in order to take our dogmas out to their logical ends to see if they are of the truth, regardless of how ‘orthodox’ some ideas have become. It is not hard to see why these issue have became so imbedded into our thinking when one considers the methods and utter wickedness and tortures the church has implemented upon those in the past that dared take a stand against her stated dogmas. Yet another reason to praise the Lord for the freedoms He has allowed us to experience via the experiment of freedom we enjoy in these United States of America!
Pray for those fighting to retain freedom for ourselves and others. I would appreciate your prayers in particular for one of my sons, who has found it his duty to support that effort in the Middle East and is currently deployed. Thanks Brother Bob for your prayers and participation on this list.
The appointment of death to all men once to die was appointed because of the sin of Adam but Adam also died inwardly and that was not pronounced upon all to follow Adam but as you said come about because of one's own sin and the second death is pronounced upon him. That come from when a person knowingly sins and the child or infant knows no such thing for they are innocent inwardly and the second death has not been pronounced upon them until they do know sin and commit sin. That is why babies and children are going to Heaven. They say God is completely Sovereign but don't want His Sovereinity to cover evil that man does. That is picking and choosing what God's Sovereignity is. Now if He in His Sovereignty made man where he had a chose then God is still Sovereign when a man chooses good or evil. I hope I am clear on this for I believe in a Sovereign God but one who made man to be able to choose. I just posted somewhere else where Jesus said: "Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall never be taken away." Well, that is the same way I chose.
I will keep your son in my mind and on my mental list of prayer to God.
sin is not passed through the male sperm.
Jesus was sinless before he entered the womb. and he came out sinless.
mary was just a means of making that physically happen.