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The Virgin Mary and Original Sin

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Heavenly Pilgrim, Jun 24, 2006.

  1. J. Jump

    J. Jump New Member

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    Gekko I'm not sure I understand your post.

    First do you have Scriptural evidence that the sin nature is not passed through the man?

    Secondly are you saying Jesus has no human genetics whatsoever and just used Mary as a birthing channel without any of her genetics attached to Him?
     
  2. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: I agree with you here.



    HP: Are other babies sinful? If so, how is sin transmitted?
     
  3. xdisciplex

    xdisciplex New Member

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    Ih Mary was only a vessel, something like an incubator then why was Jesus human? Then how can Jesus have died for us, humans if he had nothing from a human? I don't think that it's that easy.
    Dr.Alain Cairns spoke about this once and he said that this is a wrong teaching that Mary was only a vessel, if you want I can search the part and upload it here.
     
  4. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: Where is your Scriptural evidence that a sin nature is passed through man?
     
  5. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    What you think artificial insemination is today. What you think a surogate mother is?
     
  6. xdisciplex

    xdisciplex New Member

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    #26 xdisciplex, Jun 25, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 25, 2006
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    #1. The sinful nature is "inherited" from Adam not "manufactured over time by each individual".

    #2. The sinful nature is not only the "weakness" of the one who can not "persevere in doing good as he desires" it is also the "DESIRE to do evil"
     
  8. xdisciplex

    xdisciplex New Member

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    Can somebody give me a verse which says that every human is already born as a sinner? Some christians claim that babies are born sinless and you only become a sinner when you are old enough and decide to sin, but this doesn't make much sense to me because even small children which are beyond the age of accountability fight and lie and after all children are pretty selfish. If a baby doesn't get what it wants it misbehaves and screams and becomes rebellious.
     
  9. xdisciplex

    xdisciplex New Member

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    Is this true? :eek:

     
  10. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Only Scripture they will give you will say "all" which He is talking to adults but they will say infant also to justify their belief.
     
  11. xdisciplex

    xdisciplex New Member

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    If we are born sinless then everybody of us had a time where he was basically as close to God as Adam, a time where he was spiritually alive. Do you remember seeing God or walking around with God or hearing God? I don't.
    And don't you think that something like dying spiritually should have an impact on us and should be recognizable? Do you remember when you first sinned and then died spiritually? I don't. But this is such a huge,fundamental step that one should think that a person notices it.
     
  12. genesis12

    genesis12 Member

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    xdisciplex, lose the horror mask. Is what true? All of that item? Be specific.


    As to original sin,

    Rom 5:12 -

    The first sin brought the moral ruin of all. The demonstration is simple:

    (1) Death is universal (Rom_4:12); (Rom_4:14), all die: sinless infants, moral people, religious people, Christian folk, all die, equally with the depraved. For a universal effect there must be a universal cause; that cause is a state of universal sin (Rom_5:12).

    (2) This universal state must have had a cause. It did. The consequence of Adam's sin was that "the many were made sinners" (Rom_5:19) -- "By the offence of one judgment came upon all men unto condemnation" (Rom_5:18).

    Forget Augustine. What does The Book say?

    :thumbs:
     
    #32 genesis12, Jun 25, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 25, 2006
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    There is NO ONE that does good - not even ONE Rom 3 (which is a referenc to Scripture in the OT obviously)

    It does not say "there is no one over the age of 12 that does good, that seeks after God".

    It does not say "there is no one over the age of 3 that does good, that seeks after God".

    Eph 2:1-5 points out that we are born in slavery to sin and we are in need of being set free from that slavery.

    Infants NEED a savior and they HAVE a Savior. 1John 4:10-14 God sent His son to be the Savior of the World!

    "IN Adam ALL die" ALL fall under the curse of sin according to Romans 5 because it is only through sin that death comes.

    None of these texts say "ALL except Mary have sinned" and all "except Mary" need forgiveness and salvation from sin.

    2Cor 5 says "God made HIM who KNEW NO sin to be sin for us that WE MIGHT become the righteousness of God IN HIM".

    It does not say "God made Him who knew no sin to be sin for everyone but Mary..."
     
    #33 BobRyan, Jun 25, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 25, 2006
  14. genesis12

    genesis12 Member

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    I had to revise the very first line.
     
  15. xdisciplex

    xdisciplex New Member

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    Yes.
    It doesn't make sense without original sin. If there is no original sin and we are ALL born sinless and inspite of this we ALL sin then one could also say that God simply created us with a flaw and we cannot even not sin. If we cannot not sin then how can he even hold us accountable for it? This makes no sense to me.
    If we were ALL born sinless then shouldn't there also be some people which decide against sin? Why should all fall to sin?
     
  16. xdisciplex

    xdisciplex New Member

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    Yes, all of it. Wether he invented it and so on. If all of this was based on this one guy then it would in fact be a bit strange.
     
  17. genesis12

    genesis12 Member

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    Forget the one guy. You're right, it doesn't make sense without original sin. Then, once we were out here on this mudball, we got into the habit of sinning. So there is sin, and there are sins.
     
  18. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: We are not born as moral beings. We are born with the capacity for morality, but we are not moral until we reach the age of accountability. We are incapable of sin at birth.

    This is why I tried to address the issue of the definition of sin, to educate and expose false notions concerning sin that confuse us as to the way we are born and the nature of sin. Sin is at its root a moral issue. Morality speak directly to the intent formed in the will and that alone. In order for morality to be predicated of any action there are some things that must be present and some opportunities afforded. First one must have light as to what is required and the necessary abilities needed to perform the command. One must be free to form a contrary intent or no morality can be predicated of the intent. One must be able to do something other than what they do under the very same set of circumstances in order to be blamed or praised for any intent. If something is moral, praise or blame is at the heart of the chosen intent.

    If man is born in sin, there is no other possibility than for him to be a sinner. Such a notion eliminates the possibility of contrary choice, and therefore eliminates all possibility of morality being predicated of any intents and subsequent actions induced by those intents. God presents sin as being blameworthy, wicked, heinous, rebellious, willful disobedience against a known commandment of God. Scripture does not present sin, nor will reason allow the conception, of sin as blameworthy if in fact it is necessitated by coercion or force. Original sin mandates that sin is an unavoidable contagion, and eliminates any and all possibility of contrary choice. It reduces sin to a pitiful malady, making God out to be totally unjust for condemning man for someone else’s violation of the law, and for failing to allow for the possibility of becoming something other than necessity demanded them to become. It makes a mockery out of God’s justice and nonsense out of any and all proper conceptions of morals.

    God represents the sinner as a willing rebel not a victim of their birth circumstances. Only as we see sin in the light of truth, i.e. willing disobedience to a known commandment of God, can we start to understand in a true light our personal responsibility for the sinful state we are in. Only as we see ourselves as the sole one responsible for our sins can we show sincere remorse, an attitude without which no true repentance can be formulated. I must understand that I could have done something other than what I did under the very same set of circumstances to blame myself for my sin and to show remorse for that sin that repentance demands. Personal guilt and blame is a condition of remorse, and remorse is a prerequisite condition of repentance, without which we shall all likewise perish.
     
  19. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    I believe Jesus was born by Holy Spirit as we read in Mt 1:20 in Greek.
    He was born out of Holy Spirit already before He came out of Mary. ( Gennao verb was translated as " beget" "begotten" all the time, never as "conceive"

    Word became flesh, not the Sperm, the Ovum of Mary was not used.. Mary's Ovum was not designed to be fertilized with Word, but with Sperm.

    Jesus was born in Mary by Holy Spirit as a perfect Human Embryo. (Mt 1:20, Heb 10:4-7, etc)

    The blood shed at the Cros was not inherited from Mary. He came to save Adam's race ( 1 Cor 15)

    Jesus worked before Mary, Abraham was glad to see His days. Jews were upset when they heard Jesus saying " Before Abraham was I am" ( Jn 8:58, 56-58)

    Moses esteemed the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt. Did he know about Christ? Yes, Read Ex 23:20-23.
    There are many verses where you can find Jesus was working in OT times.

    Jesus was Sinless, Mary was a sinner in need of a Savior.
    She was a Hell-bound woman, but was saved by grace thru Jesus.
     
    #39 Eliyahu, Jun 25, 2006
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2006
  20. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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    It only takes one bad apple to contaminate. Read further in Job. We find hope of a tree that will be cut down, but the tender branch will not cease. Not one person can bring clean from the unclean, but God can. We are not to limit God, equating Him to we humans.
     
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