The Wall Came Tumbling Down

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by OldRegular, May 14, 2015.

  1. OldRegular

    OldRegular
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    Ephesians 2:11-22
    11. Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
    12. That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
    13. But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
    14.For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
    15. Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
    16. And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
    17. And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
    18. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
    19. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
    20. And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
    21. In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
    22. In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.


    Many if not most pre-trib-dispensationalists claim to believe in progressive revelation. In the above passage of Scripture GOD through the Apostle Paul tells us that Jesus Christ has broken down that wall between Jew and Gentile that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

    The Apostle further tells us that we Gentiles are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. That Building is the Church, the total number of those redeemed by the Blood of Jesus Christ, and is composed of believing Jew and believing Gentiles an habitation of God through the Spirit.

    In Revelations 21:1-4 we read the words of the beloved Apostle John And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

    We see in this passage the New Jerusalem, the Church, the Bride of Jesus Christ, coming to the New Heavens and New Earth where GOD will dwell with them. This is perfectly consistent with what we read in Ephesians 2:22.

    The Wall was broken by Jesus Christ through HIS sacrificial death on the Roman Cross. But sadly there are those who would rebuild that wall from the rubble of "splintered" Scripture; that wall whose destruction was accomplished on the Cross.
     
  2. OldRegular

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    Fifty views and not a single response. I did not realize there were that many on this Forum who understood the implications of the false doctrine of some dispensationalists!
     
  3. sag38

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    Page after page after page of debate and discourse and you have not convinced them and they have not convinced you. And yet you never give up. Maybe some folks are tired of engaging you in your unrelenting quest to eradicate what you view as false doctrine.
     
  4. Revmitchell

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    I am wondering, while you typed that did you have one thumb in your ear while waving same hand and sticking out your tongue.
     
  5. Darrell C

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    So show this breaking down of this wall in the Old Testament.

    Then you will have disproved the progressive nature of both revelation (not the Book) and the Redemptive Plan of God.


    God bless.
     
  6. Darrell C

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    Sorry, was tied up with a few members that actually answer questions. Takes more time in that kind of discussion.

    ;)


    God bless.
     
  7. OldRegular

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    Jesus Christ broke down the wall on the Cross as Paul clearly teaches. If you can't understand that then you are not nearly as clever as you think!!
     
  8. OldRegular

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    It is a fact whether some agree or not that what is now being called Christian Zionism is rebuilding that wall as quickly as they can.

     
  9. kyredneck

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    Now you're thrusting right at the heart of the matter. The theo-political system of Christian Zionism that Dispensationalism has morphed into is no longer to be considered a benign harmless eschatology, but is a potent political force that carries grave consequences for the entire world.

    Christian Zionism: Dispensationalism And The Roots Of Sectarian Theology

    Dispensationalism and United States Foreign Policy with Israel

    God’s Foreign Policy: Christian Zionism

    Baptist Zionists have abandoned their foundational peaceful concept of Church/State separation for the sake of a foreign nation that they believe to be 'elect' of God.
     
  10. OldRegular

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    I have always thought it strange. Some Arminians or "freewillers" have no problem with Israel being the "elect of GOD" but vehemently deny the doctrine of Sovereign Election when it comes to Gentiles and the Church!
     
  11. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Right....I mean "RIGHT!".....scary stuff!!!!
     
  12. OldRegular

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    Apparently some like John Hagee are trying to hurry GOD up regarding the so-called-"snatching away" of the Church.
     
  13. revmwc

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    Ephesians 2:11-22
    11. Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
    12. That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

    The gentiles by the Law were to stay in the outer court of the Temple.

    13. But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
    14.For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
    Jesus broke the middle wall of partition. What is this wall? Well we see
    in Matthew 27:50-52. this
    50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

    What does this show us? That instead of having a priest represent us to God we as believer priest are able to represent ourselves before God. We can now confess our sins to Him and no longer need to offer a blood sacrifice. So the middle wall of petition has been broken down.

    15. Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16. And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
    17. And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
    18. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

    He paid the price for our sins. Removed the domination of the Old Sin Nature, the old man and made us new creatures. Thus reconciling all believers to the Father. Committed the gospel to all gentiles who were afar and to the Jews who were near. We both Gentile and Jew now have access to Him, again this shows we need not have a priest represent us before God as the Law required.

    19. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
    20. And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
    21. In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
    22. In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

    The church is now established for all mankind. The church built on the foundation of the apostles Faith and Teaching. The Church as a body of believers is fit or framed together because the Holy Spirit now indwells every believer.

    Under the law the Believers Jew or Gentile were required to go to the priest and have them slay the sacrifice and take that blood into the Holy of Holy's behind the middle partition in the Temple.

    Thus with the bringing in or the church the progression of God's dealing with mankind is clearly seen.
     
  14. OldRegular

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    Yes but pre-trib-dispensationalism rebuilds that wall of separation that Jesus Christ tore down on the Cross.

    The sacrificial death of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, split the curtain separating the Holy Place from the Holy of Holies. Jesus Christ is our passover and the passover for all who believe, Jew and Gentile. GOD destroyed the temple in 70 AD, fulfilling the promise of Jesus Christ in Matthew 24. The destruction of the Temple brought a halt to the useless slaughter of animals indicating the judgment of GOD on Israel fulfilling that judgment handed down by Jesus Christ:

    Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

    Jesus Christ made the perfect sacrifice to redeem man yet pre-trib-dispensationalism insists the Temple must be rebuilt and those useless animal sacrifices must once again be offered.
     
  15. revmwc

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    He removed the care and custody of the word of God and the spreading of the Gospel Kingdom from them.

    Although the N.T. was almost entirely written by Jewish Christians. Luke was a gentile but the rest were believers of Jewish descent.

    Your problem is still needing to answer these verses:

    Revelation 20:2-5

    2 "And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
    3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
    4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
    5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."

    Clearly this Kingdom and the binding of satan last 1000 years. Since we are currently in 2015 from 70 A.D would by any calender be over 1000 years.

    You need to explain the 1000 years clearly laid out
    And who the rest of the dead are with the First resurrection having been completed.

    So show how this is not the Kingdom of Christ and that as you say the 70 A.D. marked the event, with this part of these verses:
    "they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years" there some type of Kingdom with a 1000 year and a resurrection "they lived" that would be a resurrection. So answer this please!
     
  16. OldRegular

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    Simple! Revelation 20 speaks of the Saints, the Church, reigning with Jesus Christ. You say on earth sometime in the future but I say in heaven at the present time. Nevertheless that rules out national/ethnic Israel. Of course your biggest mistake is trying to interpret Revelation literally.

    Now you go back and explain the passage from 2 Peter! No one has at present, they just shuffle their feet as they weave and dodge!
     
    #16 OldRegular, May 15, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: May 15, 2015
  17. Earth Wind and Fire

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    "Thinking " is the key word....I'm thinkin:laugh::laugh::godisgood:
     
  18. tyndale1946

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    I see this doctrine as the doctrine delayed occupancy!... This sometime in the future Christ reigning on earth for a thousand years. Jesus told one thief on the cross this day thou shall be with me in paradise. In John he states another fact about this paradise he was talking about.

    John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

    2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

    3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

    4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

    My question is did Jesus lie?... He went to prepare a place and it doesn't say this place will ever be here on earth!... The very same place he came from is where we his blood bought children are going to. I'm just waiting for my change to come so I can move in. In the meantime my occupancy is delayed because I'm still here in this fleshly sinful body on this sin cursed earth. Since I will be supping with the Lord in my mansion in heaven, it saddens these others have no where to go!... btw Old Regular would you care for some Angel Food Cake?... Brother Glen
     
  19. OldRegular

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    When we die our the dwelling place for our souls will be in heaven in the presence of GOD. Our bodies will return to dust. However after the resurrection, and I believe in a general resurrection and judgment of all the dead at the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, Scripture tells us there will the White Throne Judgment and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. All appear before this Judgment and Satan and his are cast into the lake of fire. {Revelation 20:11-15}

    {The Apostle Paul in his letter to the Church at Rome tells us:

    Romans 8:18-23
    18. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
    19. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
    20. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
    21. Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
    22. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
    23. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.


    All of creation, which was affected by the fall, waits with earnest expectation for the Second Coming and the removal of the curse of the fall.}​

    Then the New Jerusalem which is the Church, the Bride of Jesus Christ, the total number of the redeemed of all time will dwell in the New Heavens and New Earth {Revelation 21:1ff}. As you read Revelation 21 it is obvious that John is not giving events in a chronological order!

    Revelation 21:1-4; 9-11
    1. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
    2. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
    3. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
    4. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.


    In this New Heavens and New Earth we are told: the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

    Revelation 21: 9-11
    9. And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb’s wife.
    10. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
    11. Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;


    Now consider the description of the Bride of Jesus Christ. But remember this description is not literal but figurative. Certainly the Bride of Jesus Christ is not a literal building!

    Revelation 21:12-14
    12. And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
    13. On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
    14. And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.


    I believe the fact that the 12 Apostles and 12 tribes are included in this description of the New Jerusalem, the Bride of Jesus Christ, tells us that the Bride includes all the redeemed of all time.
     
  20. revmwc

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    Revelation 20:2-5

    2 "And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
    3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
    4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
    5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."

    You failed to address the 1000 years that is shown in this passage as requested.

    This says "they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years" so if there has been approximately 1985 years since Pentecost and approximately 1945 years since the fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. then how can as you "I say in heaven at the present time" the Kingdom referred to here, be in Heaven now since well over 1000 years has passed Jesus Revelation said it would end in 1000 years?

    Then you have this too " the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" if as Revelation 20 states the kingdom is a 1000 year kingdom has this resurrection taken place?

    I see no question in the Thread on 2 Peter what thread?
     
    #20 revmwc, May 15, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: May 15, 2015

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