The water and the spirit.John 3:5 What is the water?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by humbleherc, Feb 16, 2004.

  1. humbleherc

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    Does any one know what the water represents in this passage of scripture?
     
  2. Yelsew2

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    Natural birth and spiritual birth
     
  3. Yelsew2

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    Being Born of water is natural childbirth.
    Being Born of Spirit is being born in the spirit.

    In order to be born in the spirit one must first be born in the flesh. It is not possible to be born in the spirit without first being born into natural life.

    It is in the natural life where come to have a spirit. And the human spirit must be born from "above" in order to have everlasting life.
     
  4. humbleherc

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    Water and the spirit(Spirit of truth)the water is the truth.In my weak way of thinking any way.


     
  5. Yelsew2

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    </font>[/QUOTE]Yeah but you ain't thinkin' in context! The whole of the Context is John 3:1-21.

    I suggest you copy that whole body of text and paste it in a word document. Delete the verse numbers, and format the text into paragraphs that make sense. You'll be amazed at what does to your thinking. Besides verse separations did not exist in the original or subsequent manuscripts, they were added some time later.
     
  6. humbleherc

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    Yelsew ,but the water that christ was to give the girl at the well to drink was what?Living water right.Their was natural drinking water their and if you drank it you would thirst again.right.Then the water that Christ gives is a well of water springing up into ever lasting life.John 4:7 and John 7:37,38.A child of grace is born of the water and spirit when he thirst for what?living water.what is living water?""truth"" .Christ is the way ,the truth and the life.(Spirit of truth )( water and spirit) the water is the''"" truth''"" The way my weak mind under stands it anyway.


    </font>[/QUOTE]Yeah but you ain't thinkin' in context! The whole of the Context is John 3:1-21.

    I suggest you copy that whole body of text and paste it in a word document. Delete the verse numbers, and format the text into paragraphs that make sense. You'll be amazed at what does to your thinking. Besides verse separations did not exist in the original or subsequent manuscripts, they were added some time later.
    </font>[/QUOTE]
     
  7. Yelsew2

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    Different scenario for a different purpose.

    Jesus was explaining to Nicodemus, a prominent teacher in the land, that one must first be born in the flesh or into natural life, "born below", before one can be born "from above". There is no opportunity for one to come to faith unless that one IS LIVING in the flesh. After we die from the flesh there is no opportunity for one last altar call, that is the time of judgment!

    Before we are born of, in, or through water, we do not have life, if we do not have life we cannot have spirit, if we do not have spirit we cannot be "born again".

    So Jesus is speaking of natural birth and spirit rebirth.

    What Jesus is speaking of in the other instances is of course the Living Water, the water of life, which is the Gospel and the Holy Spirit. Unless one receives the Gospel and the Holy Spirit, one cannot have eternal life.
     
  8. Me2

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    herc,

    the water is "truth".

    Rom 8:2 For "the law" of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus "hath made me free" from the law of sin and death.

    the "spirit" is the spirit of Christ.

    remember the two trees in the garden. the "truth" of..the knowledge of Good and evil. or another term. the "law".

    and the other tree. the "spirit" of life. the "spirit of christ".

    we can say here that the "water" is truth or the law.
    and what is the purpose of the law. it is to kill the works of our carnal spirit.
    water also represents the flood and death to the antidiluvian civilization. we can extend this to water baptism.
    it also sybolizes death of our carnal spirit.

    Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    the simple truth is the introduction of Gods truth to carnal man means death to his carnal spirit.

    and being born of the spirit is being baptised into the death (water) and resurrection of Christ (spirit). we are born of the spirit by God our father substituting Christ spirit for our cursed spirit in death allowing us to be resurrected or born of the spirit.

    the water delivers us to death and the spirit
    resurrects us from death into life.

    we are born from death..
     
  9. Yelsew2

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    Wrong Me2! Just plain wrong!

    You cannot get there from John 3!

    There is no other example in the "words of Jesus" where the correlation between water and spirit is made in the context that it is made in John 3!

    If Jesus had not said in the same passage, "What is flesh is flesh and what is spirit is spirit", you might be able to construct your strawman any way you want, but you cannot do so because Jesus clearly makes the connection between "water and spirit" and "flesh and spirit". YES, all in the same paragraph of thought!
     
  10. Me2

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    Yelsew,

    Break it down. I see multiple stories here. Jesus and nicodemus are speaking about spiritual birth.

    although nicodemus mentions physical birth. Jesus says sure its like that. but did you catch that He were referencing the "temple" as Gods spiritual womb.
    mankind enters through the temple door (jesus) into the temple to become born into another realm. the spiritual realm of God.

    Did you remember that there is two stations outside the temple. the alter and laver of water.
    the laver of water represents washing or renewing our mind. regeneration of our mindset. or..

    WASHING OUR MINDSET WITH THE TRUTH OF GOD..the LAW

    Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
    Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
    Eph 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

    when we die to self. we lose earthly wisdom and replace it with heavenly wisdom. we die to our old ideas and imaginations. until we cry out to God to fill us with his spirit. we are born again by takng on the mindset of Christ. We know our father loves us and possesses the power to resurrect us from this world of death. and will give this power to us. the power of truth. the washing and renewing and regerating our spiritual mind.

    water here represents truth. Gods truth. to finite man it appears to us as the law of sin and death. to a infinite man. it appears as the law of Christ and righteousness.
    yet its the same words. the same wisdom. the same truth.

    heres a truth yelsew..
    did you catch the two things that must happen to enter and see the kingdom. be born of water AND be born of spirit.

    many are born of water they are convicted of sin..yet are not born of spirit. this is the point where it is predetermined reprobates fall away.
    they enter into death by conviction of sin, yet dont accept Jesus as their lord.
    BOTH are required to be saved or born again.
    Both steps..being born of water and being born of spirit are required to enter into and see Heaven.

    Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

    this statement clearly says that that which is flesh (physical) is flesh (physical) and that which is spirit (invisible) is spirit (invisible).

    so were back to God and his words..

    Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

    truth. Gods truth. as God presents the truth to men who can comprehend and understand Gods truth.

    Truth as in the law of Christ.

    the law of righteousness. its meant to destroy all unrighteousness in men of flesh and uphold and deliver and sanctify all who hold truth in righteousness

    Me2
     
  11. Yelsew2

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    You make entirely more out of it than is actually there. You are making connections of typology that do not exist in the text that is intended for the "common man". Remember what Jesus himself said, he came to save the meek and lowly, the down-trodden, etc. How does he do that 2000 years later than when his words were written down. It is not through the allegory that you use.

    Remember that Nicodemus came to Jesus in the night, so they were not near the temple. You can only "Presume" what they may have been thinking. So you must stick with the words that we have on paper and their relationships one with the other.

    Paul did not come on the scene for several years, so to use Paul's words to explain the conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus one must make a lot of assumption, as you have. You cannot recall conversations you had three or four years ago, so how can you expect Paul to know the details of a conversation that he did not have.

    STICK WITH JOHN 3!
     
  12. Jarlaxle

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    if the water represents physical birth, and one can not be born of the spirit without being physically born, then does that mean aborted babies can not be born of the spirit?
     
  13. Yelsew2

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    Jarlaxle,
    I said,
    Please note these words in my quoted text:
    OF = Gestation
    IN = Gestation
    Through = Pass through birth canal. Water breaks? Look out! Here comes baby!

    During Gestation we have spirit, and NO SIN, Nothing to condemn us, we are then without sin even though we may have the human propensity to sin inherent to all humanity, we are guiltless.

    Upon passage through the birth canal we are said to be "born of flesh". We have "arrived" into natural life, and we remain guiltless for some period of time, until our first deliberate act of disobedience to authority.

    It is from this time, that we have all the faculties necessary to "hear the word" of God. Eventually during this natural life we must determine whether or not to have faith in the Word, and the central figure of the Word who is himself the living Word of God. If we come to have faith In Jesus, we are "reborn" in spirit, and then we shall have (future tense) everlasting life. If we do not come to faith then we condemn ourselves to death. For when we die from the flesh, or natural life, it is then that we are judged.

    So WE must be born of water, then reborn in spirit in order to have everlasting life. There is nothing mystical about that! Nothing to do with the Tabernacle or the Temple. But rather a simple basic situation that GOD imposed upon man! Be born of flesh, Be reborn in spirit.
     
  14. Me2

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    my response is a little different, jarlaxle.

    all life that enters into this world has already been completed in Gods absolute planning. Our lives have already been planned out to experience everything necessary to bring us to the completed image that God intends us to know and experience.

    no one is left behind, forgotten of God or is made incomplete. in whatever state of the process of reconstruction of our lives within our finite and limited observations

    any life that enters into this world will have the same opportunities of reaching maturity in body, soul and spirit as every other created human being.

    imagine yourself in heaven observing the growth of any human being in finite time.. wouldnt you be concerned if any were not completed or had experienced an unfulfilled life as your own?

    or one that would be less fulfilled as your own?

    God has already proven that none of his creation will be treated impartially. all lives will become complete as their image is planned to be.

    repeating myself...

    to a finite mind. I would be satisfied with Yelsews explaination. but I cant believe that the conversation between jesus and nicodemus would be so elementary...

    Jesus spoke to nicodemus about spiritual rebirth.

    and spiritual rebirth begins at the determined moment our old spirit is judged. placed in death. and the spirit of christ is placed within us. replacing our old carnal spirit with that of the son of God.

    Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.


    this begins our life as a child of God. Every child that God has created will and must begin their spiritual rebirth by being placed into death first. and be resurrected from death into life.

    and that means that every creation God has designed in the image of man before the foundation of the world will proceed through this process to understand who they are as God has created them to become.

    Me2
     
  15. Yelsew2

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    Would you please substantiate this claim?
     
  16. Yelsew2

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    And why not? What makes you think that Jesus spoke to Nicodemus any differently than he did to his own disciples? Look at all that He said to his disciples that was not rocket science, but pure and normal human logic.

    You are looking for the plain truth of Christianity on an intergalactic level. IT AIN"T THERE!
     
  17. humbleherc

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    Both of you have got this thing twisted so much
    who knows.Lets look at Pauls case Paul thought he was doing right in the old law service,but was bad wrong.Jesus had to come down and change him into his spirit(spirit of grace)spirit of truth,thus spirit of Christ.Paul was born of the water and the spirit.Paul could finally believe and know the truth and tell it.What did he tell?the Jesus was the very christ that was to come.Sometime in a mans life he must be changed into these truths in order to be born again.look at John 14:17


     
  18. Yelsew2

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    Herc, that is exactly what I said, don't you read?

    Jesus is telling Nicodemus, one must be born human before one can become reborn Christian!
     
  19. humbleherc

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    Ok Yelsew,I relize it takes the natural to bare birth the spiritual.How about the ones that do many wonderfull works ,but he tells them to depart from me ye workers of iniquity i never knew you.It won't be because he didn't know them he did he made them ,but he never knew them in the freedom pardon of their sins.Meaning he never Pardoned and passed by them in this life.Because God does the calling ,he does the saving and the justifying.God elects ,choose's whom will spend eternity with him and he done that before the world began in Christ Jesus.Predestination is the very thing that lifts us up by the foreknowledge of God because it is something he has already accomplished a way back yonder before the foundation of the world.Or we would never have a desire to serve him and wait on him to come ,but we wait on him because of him.For we are his servants not to be taken and destroyed,but rather be made to be obedient to our calling of which we are preserved and sealed by the Holy spirit of promise.Can we agree?


    Herc, that is exactly what I said, don't you read?

    Jesus is telling Nicodemus, one must be born human before one can become reborn Christian!
    </font>[/QUOTE]
     
  20. Yelsew2

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    Now what does this have to do with the water and the spirit? Nothing it is a diversion away from John 3.
     

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