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Featured The Wedding Feast at Cana

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by InTheLight, Jun 14, 2012.

  1. Chad Whiteley

    Chad Whiteley Member

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    We all just need to understand the teetotallers religion:

    1) Wine is evil.
    2) Wine doesn't mean wine, it means grape juice.
    3) Drunk doesn't mean drunk, it means not thirsty anymore
    4) Lees in Isaiah 25 doesn't mean lees, because God can not endorse the production of a well-refined fermented wine. Instead, what the Bible calls lees is a residual from the pasteurization process that God does ordain.
    5) The disciple "Thomas" was actually the prefigured Thomas B. Welch who perfected the Lord's Supper by restoring it to the original pastuerized variety.

    THIS IS ALL PLAINLY TAUGHT IN THE BIBLE IN MATTHEW 29!

    Oh.. and I forgot, everyone in Israel boiled down their wines to make a really syruppy substance. Then, for the Passover, they reconstituted it with the pure bottled water sold in Israel (even though this practice was forbidden by God in feasts in Isaiah 1:22).

    You learn about this boiling process in Jude 2.

    I mean, you people that believe that Jesus drank wine are so unbiblical.

    Thanks, Fred, for shining the truth of the Word into the forum.
     
  2. Steadfast Fred

    Steadfast Fred Active Member

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    Since you fail to believe the truth, the truth will continue to be preached in hopes that others don't end up like you... sarcastic and unbelieving.
     
  3. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    It is clear that the wine was not alcoholic in nature that the Lord made. It is said to be the good. In that culture there was no refrigeration. The climate is much like Texas, HOT! The fruit of the vine would quickly sour in that heat.
    They would take sour/fermented juice and cut it and add honey to drink.The good was considered freshly squeezed, not soured and fermented. The good is what the Lord gave them. Fresh juice or the good wine.
    Look at the passage John 2:10

    And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: [but] thou hast kept the good wine until now.


    The reason they put out the good wine (unfermented) first is so the people would be full of the unfermented and not drink so much of the fermented when it was put out since the feast lasted around 7 days. They fermented wine, even though it was cut so as to not get drunk, at a feast a person could easily drink enough of the fermented over those 7 days to become intoxicated so the custom was to put the good (unfermented) out first to fill them up. It was a shameful thing for an orthodox Jew to get drunk as they understood the admonitions against it.

    As to how long the feast lasted it was about a week but it took place after the marriage was consummated. Read here;
    http://www.laydownlife.net/yedidah/AncientJewishWeddingCeremony.htm
     
    #23 freeatlast, Jun 16, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 16, 2012
  4. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    The Greek word is oinos (oinoV), which certainly does not mean "a beverage that has alcohol." (For that we have sikera, sikera, "beer" in the Holman translaton.) It means any drink made from the grape. It can mean grape juice and it often means alcoholic wine. Even in the NT it sometimes means grape juice (though in that case it usually has "new" in front of it).
     
  5. preachinjesus

    preachinjesus Well-Known Member
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    These conversations always make me laugh. The amount of exegetical gymnastics required to faithfully maintain the teetotalist position are so oddly contorted we should either. Elgin awarding medals or point out that this is not in keeping with their normal hermeneutics.

    Anyhoo...at the wedding feast, if they were good Jews, they would have used Kosher wine which has been 7 and 13 percent alcohol content.

    You can argue it all you want. This is the Jewish tradition still practiced today. :)
     
  6. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    Friend you seem a little confused about what constitutes Kosher. Kosher does not involve alcohol, but who touches it. It could be grape juice that is kosher or non kosher or an alcoholic drink, that is kosher or non kosher. No gentile could never have touched the fruit or the drink for it to become Kosher. It had to be all Jewish from the planting of the seed to picking the fruit and squeezing the fruit and bottling it. Today that has been relaxed in many areas.
    The Jews during the time of Christ did not have the same process we have today to make wine. The drink became bad tasting as it soured or fermented, actually it was closer to vinegar, on its own or was so sweet and thick if they boiled it down it had to be watered down to drink. Back then they never knew of sweet good tasting wine, as in alcoholic wine, except what was grape juice. This is why you read in Mat 9:16
    Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

    New wine or good wine was grape juice that had not yet started the fermentation process or soured. If you put new wine or good wine into old bottles they will burst once the fermentation process starts because of the gas expansion. Keep in mind that these bottles that is being spoken of were animal skins. Once that they had been used they had already stretched all they could stand and putting new, or good wine into them would stretch them to the breaking point.


    While it is true that at certain ceremonies they used a wine that had a small amount of alcohol in it because of the natural process of fermentation or souring as well as their own processing it still wass not like the wine of today. No one today would think of drinking or serving what they made back then because of the bad taste. In the case of the wedding feast the wording makes it clear that what the Lord made as sweet and pure squeeze of the vine, grape juice.

    http://www.savoreachglass.com/articles/the-wine-of-israel-and-wine-in-biblical-times

    I would agree that at times the Jew did use real wine even though it tasted bad and they did use it at certain points of the wedding feasts as there was two different cups for that, but this is not what the Lord is making as this wine was for the consumption of the guests. Notice again. He made good wine. The Jew did not have good wine as far as an alcoholic beverage. All their alcoholic beverages tasted bad. This was grape juice that the Lord made.
     
    #26 freeatlast, Jun 16, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 16, 2012
  7. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

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    the word oinos always means its fermented. trux is the greek for unfermented grape juice.
     
  8. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Sorry, you're wrong, otherwise Jesus would not have spoken of new wine (oinos) in Matt. 9:17. The word trux (trux) does not appear in the NT or LXX. It only appears in classical Greek according to my research, therefore would probably not have been used in the koine the NT was written in.

    You may consider gleukos (gleukoV) instead, which appears in Job 32:19 (LXX) and Acts 2:13, and can be taken to mean grape juice. However, that is a more specific word than oinos, which as I've pointed out was used as a general word for drinks made from grapes.
     
  9. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

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    I'm not wrong. That's the definition of the word. You can't change it. Yes, I know "trux" doesn't appear in the NT. That's a very good point you are making. onios means fermented grape juice. As I pointed out before, during the NT time, "oinos" would have been diluted with water. Much of the time to purify the water and not so much for any other reason. This would be when they had the 12 parts water to 1 part oinos. The alcohol content at this point would be next to nothing. It would be equivalent to mixing a can of beer with 12 cans of water. It would be impossible to get drunk when done in this way.
     
  10. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    For the life of me I can't figure out how a lexicographer can get "already fermented wine" out of "new wine" (Matt. 9:17, Mark 2:22, Luke 5:37-38). It just doesn't make sense. Usage determines meaning. Lexicon defintitions do not. If the wine is new, of course it was freshly squeezed!

    Furthermore, here's an interesting statement on that from the Theological Workbook of the OT:
    [
    Good information.
     
    #30 John of Japan, Jun 16, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 16, 2012
  11. Steadfast Fred

    Steadfast Fred Active Member

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    I agree with the above quote.

    It is interesting that in my 1726 Philip Bailey Dictionary, it lists as one of its definitions for wine "liquor made from grapes" For "liquor", it says "any liquid, fermented or unfermented."
     
  12. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    What actually happened before the water was changed to wine, a shipment of Boone's Farm was brought in.
     
    #32 saturneptune, Jun 16, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 16, 2012
  13. Steadfast Fred

    Steadfast Fred Active Member

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    or Ripple?
     
  14. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    "Wine" even in English had one meaning of unfermented grape drink as late as the early 20th century.
     
  15. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    I am the most interesting man on earth.
    My church decends directly back to the apostles.
    I hired King James to translate the Inspired word into English.
    God chose me.
    I mapped out the mission trips for Paul.
    The Ark of the Covenant is in my attic along with the Holy Grail

    I dont drink grape juice often, but when I do, I drink Welches
    Stay thirsty my friend.
     
  16. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    ??? :confused::confused:
    Does this post have relevance or meaning?
     
  17. Steadfast Fred

    Steadfast Fred Active Member

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    It appears to be a spoof on a television commercial for Dos Eqiis acohol
     
  18. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    You need to get out more.
     
  19. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Get out more? :laugh: In the paat nine months we've traveled almost 30,000 miles on furlough.
     
  20. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    Well, you got me beat there. I did walk across the street to the Dairy Queen.
     
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