"...the whole world."

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by skypair, Dec 5, 2007.

  1. skypair

    skypair
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    4,657
    Likes Received:
    0
    Here's something for your consideration...

    Same author -- same world...

    1John 2:2 -- "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

    Rev 12:9 -- "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceives the whole world:..."

    Does Satan only deceive SOME of every "nation, and kindred, and people, and tongue" or does he try to deceive everyone in the "whole world?"

    I mean -- Calvies -- in light of this verse, did Christ die for all sin of all time?? or for only the "elect?"

    skypair
     
  2. Amy.G

    Amy.G
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Messages:
    13,103
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes. He deceives some, the unsaved, which are part of every nation.

    The saved are not deceived.

    Gotta go to church. :)
     
  3. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    So satan never deceives believers?

    2 Peter 3:17
    Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

    The term "whole world" is never used to describe some of mankind, but what it logically says...the whole.
     
  4. Rippon

    Rippon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    17,403
    Likes Received:
    328
    No wrong again WD . For starters , look up Jeremiah 50:23,51:7 , Acts 11:28 ( in some versions ) and 1 John 5:19 . The last reference says that the whole world is in the power of the evil one . Well , if that's the case with each and every person head-for-head -- that's an impossibility -- how do you account for believers ? They are not under his power .

    Matthew 24:24 : "For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive , if possible , even the elect ." ( TNIV ) That sentence is so structured that it is an impossibility for the elect to be deceived in an ultimate sense .
     
  5. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    May 13, 2005
    Messages:
    12,723
    Likes Received:
    0
    Rom 3:22Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

    Rom 3:23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

    Rom 5:12¶Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

    Even the believers have to die the fleshly death.

    BBob,
     
  6. Amy.G

    Amy.G
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Messages:
    13,103
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes, but are believers deceived by Satan? If believers are deceived by Satan, then the Holy Spirit has no power.
     
  7. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    May 13, 2005
    Messages:
    12,723
    Likes Received:
    0
    From what has been advocated on BB, the saved sin all the time and bad sins. It sure is not God deceiving them. The thorn in the flesh of believers is a messenger from Satan.

    1Cr 15:33Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. (but we slip, from time to time, not sin unto death though)

    I am the one who defends Christians against committing such sins as adultery, but we do sin and that is because of Satan, not God. That is why we are chatised.

    If we do it wilfully, and not deceived, then we are in deep trouble.

    Hbr 10:26¶For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

    BBob,
     
    #7 Brother Bob, Dec 5, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 5, 2007
  8. dan e.

    dan e.
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2006
    Messages:
    1,468
    Likes Received:
    0
    Not true.

    Quite a statement to suggest that believers aren't deceived. You must have heard the greatest 4 point sermon EVER.
     
  9. Amy.G

    Amy.G
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Messages:
    13,103
    Likes Received:
    0
    2Cr 4:4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
     
  10. belvedere

    belvedere
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2006
    Messages:
    64
    Likes Received:
    0
    Sky, the verse does not say "tries to deceive"...it says "deceives".
     
  11. dan e.

    dan e.
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2006
    Messages:
    1,468
    Likes Received:
    0
    That doesn't prove your point.

    I think EVERYONE has been deceived, as shown in the OP...but only some are found, obviously.
     
    #11 dan e., Dec 5, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 5, 2007
  12. Helen

    Helen
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/Helen2.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2001
    Messages:
    11,703
    Likes Received:
    1
    The whole world IS under the power of the evil one. And believers are called out of this world and become citizens of another, although remaining here for awhile. Please recall the third temptation of Christ, when Satan offered the kingdoms to Him. Christ did not dispute Satan's ownership.

    The Bible is written simply and clearly and means what it says. It is the whole world God has loved, and Jesus tasted death for EVERY person, and the atonement for all sin is complete for all time. There is nothing partial about anything Jesus did.
     
  13. Amy.G

    Amy.G
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Messages:
    13,103
    Likes Received:
    0
    Jhn 17:15 "I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil {one.}

    Eph 6:16 in addition to all, taking up the shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil {one.}

    2Th 3:3 But the Lord is faithful, and He will strengthen and protect you from the evil {one.}

    1Jo 5:18 We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.

    1Jo 5:19 We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in {the power of} the evil one.



    The saved are not under the power of the evil one.
     
    #13 Amy.G, Dec 5, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 5, 2007
  14. Allan

    Allan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    6,888
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think she was meaning in a 'world system'. We are under the power of the enemy in the sense he can kill us, persecute us, or as little as irritate us, by God permission not withstanding. (nothing is done without Gods permission)However, I doubt she was meaning that under the power of the enemy means he is able to control us.
     
  15. Amy.G

    Amy.G
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Messages:
    13,103
    Likes Received:
    0
    She said the whole world is under the power of the evil one.

    I disagreed.
     
  16. Rippon

    Rippon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    17,403
    Likes Received:
    328
    Amy , those Scriptures you furnished should be quite adequate for anyone who really wishes to be under the authority of the Bible for their views .
     
  17. Allan

    Allan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    6,888
    Likes Received:
    0
    Understood, but is he not given 'power' to steal, kill, and destroy?

    Is he not given the 'power' to persecute and kill believers? Or does he do it because God can't stop him?


    Therefore we are not controlled by Satan's power but we are under his God given power within the world system. Again granted, Satan can only go as far as God allows, but he is still given that 'power' by God and we are subject to that which God permits by His will.

    If she didn't mean this, this I am obviously in contention until I understand what she clearly means. I am just trying to elaborate her 'apparent' point.
     
    #17 Allan, Dec 6, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 6, 2007
  18. Rippon

    Rippon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    17,403
    Likes Received:
    328
    More Scripture

    Colossians 1:13 : For he has rescued us from the kingdom of darkness and transferred us into the Kingdom of his dear Son ,

    1 Peter 2:9 : But you are not like that , for you are a chosen people . You are royal priests , a holy nation , God's very own possession . As a result , you can show others the goodness of God , for he called you out of the darkness into his wonderful light .

    Both references are from the NLTse )

    Obviously "the darkness" and "the kingdom of darkness" refer to Satan's domain -- his power . Believers are removed from that realm .
     
  19. Helen

    Helen
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/Helen2.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2001
    Messages:
    11,703
    Likes Received:
    1
    Thank you, Allan. It's lovely when just a part of my post is taken out of context for the purposes of the opposition. I've been on Baptist Board a long time, and those defending the Calvinist position have done that consistently.

    They do it with the Bible, too, which is far, far worse.
     
  20. Allan

    Allan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    6,888
    Likes Received:
    0
    For those curious these References given Colossians 1:13, 1 Peter 2:9 are concerning salvation, and a changed life thus it is much akin to Eph 2:2 where Paul states we walked in times past according to the prince of the power of the air. We walked in accordance or in the likeness of the one who rules the earth.

    But we are saved from sin and the power thereof. Therefore satan has no power to spiritually rule us but he still has power in the world over us ('over' being in the sense he still has the God given authority [power] to steal, kill, and destroy in the flesh though no longer in the spirit)

    Would God give satan power over his people??
    You bet, here is an example of what I am talking about:
    The 'him' in the above is the Anti-Christ who was given all power which Satan had. The 'overcome' means to kill them due to his being enabled to make war with them.
    There are others but this was what came to mind first.

    Though we are not OF the world, we are still in the world and therefore subject to those worldly aspects which regard the flesh. Thus scripture states :
    Therefore we are not controlled by Satan's power but we are under his God given power within the world system. Again granted, Satan can only go as far as God allows, but he is still given that 'power' by God and we are subject to that which God permits by His will.
     
    #20 Allan, Dec 6, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 6, 2007

Share This Page

Loading...