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"...the whole world."

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by skypair, Dec 5, 2007.

  1. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    Amy, if believers aren't living perfect lives in this world, they have been deceived. In 45 years as a Christian, I KNOW that Satan still deceives me and stay on guard.

    Rip --- the "elect" won't be deceived by "the lie," that Satan is Christ.

    skypair
     
  2. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    He has had to blind them so that they can't see the one thing they CAN see without spiritual "eyes." The lost, unregenerate CAN see the gospel unless they are blinded by Satan. (I know Calvinsim doesn't say this but 1Cor 2:1-4 shows that, if the gospel is presented in "plainness of speech humbly," the lost may hear and receive it!

    skypair
     
  3. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    True. Thanks for clarifying that! :jesus:

    skypair
     
  4. Alex Quackenbush

    Alex Quackenbush New Member

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    You see how fast they ran from this? Anything but deal with what is in front of them.

    Satan deceives believers quite often and sometimes believers deceive themselves. What these failures of even the most elementary Bible doctrines take issue with, is the reality that though within them is the Holy Spirit, there is also within them their volitional capacity, a truth that is anathema to their troublesome Calvinism.

    They are dumbfounded and cannot answer how it is that while the Holy Spirit resides within believer Satan can and does deceive believers. Of course the answer (human volition) is central to that which they often deny, though they give lip service to it so as to not make blatant both their intellectual inconsistency and the misguided end of their doctrine.

    Satan deceives believers because believers choose to be deceived. Just as the Holy Spirit does not control the life of a believer unless the believer yields to that control, the influence of Doctrines of Demons is also a result of the exercise of their volition.

    Ultimately these are results of human choice.

    The preservation of the salvation of the believer is the guard of God. But the daily choices to yield to the influence of Doctrines of Demons or The Doctrine of God is the believers choice. Now once the believer chooses to yield to the influence of God the Holy Spirit, then indeed the spiritual enlightenment is the work of God as well as all of the other spiritual phenomena the believer experiences.

    Of course accepting this not only forces the Calvinist to confront their error regarding the nature of human volition but the erring doctrine of Perserverance. And even further investigation and pursuit for clarity in this area alone, forces the remaining doctrinal facades of Calvinism to be confronted.

    The option?

    Deny what is clearly stated, namely that believers can be deceived, and appeal to something else in opposition to what is most clear.
     
  5. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    Same author, not the same world. One of Non-Calvies numerous mistakes:

    1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


    G2889
    κόσμος
    kosmos
    Thayer Definition:
    1) an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government
    2) ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars, ‘the heavenly hosts’, as the ornament of the heavens. 1Pe_3:3
    3) the world, the universe
    4) the circle of the earth, the earth
    5) the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family
    6) the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ
    7) world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly
    7a) the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ
    8) any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort
    8a) the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom_11:12 etc)
    8b) of believers only, Joh_1:29; Joh_3:16; Joh_3:17; Joh_6:33; Joh_12:47 1Co_4:9; 2Co_5:19
    Part of Speech: noun masculine
    A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: probably from the base of G2865
    Citing in TDNT: 3:868, 459




    Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


    G3625
    οἰκουμένη
    oikoumenē
    Thayer Definition:
    1) the inhabited earth
    1a) the portion of the earth inhabited by the Greeks, in distinction from the lands of the barbarians
    1b) the Roman empire, all the subjects of the empire
    1c) the whole inhabited earth, the world
    1d) the inhabitants of the earth, men
    2) the universe, the world
    Part of Speech: noun feminine
    A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: feminine participle present passive of G3611 (as noun, by implication of G1093)
    Citing in TDNT: 5:157, 674


    oikoumenē is used in this verse as well.


    Luk 2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.
     
  6. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    greasshopper,

    I am amazed that, having many of the same definitions to choose from (5 and 1c), you can yet deny the context with your equivocations!

    You know, when we see the truth and deny it, we are under CONVICTION. There is NOTHING appearing in either context to suggest that there is anything but the identical meaning offered for "whole world."

    But you know what? You've been taught another way and apparently your faith has at least one lie imbedded in it. Paul said that his faith was "unfeigned." Yours apparently is feigned to some degree else this detail would not bother you.

    BTW, Luke didn't use the term "whole world" so he may well have meant something else.

    skypair
     
  7. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    1. I'm sure the "greasshopper" was just a typo.

    2. He still used two different words no matter how much it pains you.

    3. Luke used "all the world". I thought "all" meant all to non-Calvies.

    4.. 8a) the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom_11:12 etc)
    8b) of believers only, Joh_1:29; Joh_3:16; Joh_3:17; Joh_6:33; Joh_12:471Co_4:9; 2Co_5:19

     
    #27 Grasshopper, Dec 8, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 8, 2007
  8. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Understanding "propitiation" would help.

    As was pointed out days ago, IF Jesus was the "propitiation" for every man who ever lived, then (unless God lied) every man who ever lived is born agan.

    That is universalism. That is also heresy.
     
  9. Alex Quackenbush

    Alex Quackenbush New Member

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    I challenge this view as INCORRECT. Because while Jesus was your propitiation it did not automatically make YOU saved either. You were not saved until you believed, hence the application of the propitiation on your behalf was not made for you UNTIL you believed.

    "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved"

    So those who do not believe do not have it applied.
     
    #29 Alex Quackenbush, Dec 9, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 9, 2007
  10. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    I was regenerated and sin covered and justified with the Father by the action and work of the atonement of Jesus Christ, NOT by my work of saying some words.

    Perhaps you've heard of by GRACE you are saved, NOT of your own works (doing some xyz).

    Propitiation is the act of atonement (being a Mercy Seat) between the Father and the Son. Bob is the recipient of this propitiation.
     
  11. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Yes , Dr. Bob , because Propitiation actually removes God's wrath from an individual . So , without thinking their position through very well -- many non-Cals believe that multiplied millions have had their sins satisfied by the Lord . Many of these "propitiated folks" have never even heard the Gospel . Yet , despite the removal of Divine wrath against them -- they end-up in eternal Hell anyway --- TO FACE GOD'S ETERNAL WRATH . It doesn't add up . According to their theory God takes away His wrath from them , only to foist it upon them forever in perdition . Unless , Christ propitiates the sins of some people -- the elect . These Sheep (Saints , Christians , Beloved ) are from among many different tribes , nations , languages , backgrounds . These scattered Children of God have already been dispersed world-wide by the Lord encompassing many from beyond the Hebrew people . Yeah , that's it !
     
  12. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    They have to redefine the term (hence my original post) or make it contingent on ME, which of course skewers the whole thing.

    Universalism and pelagianism are rampant in Baptist circles today, as doctrine takes a back seat to feelings.
     
  13. Alex Quackenbush

    Alex Quackenbush New Member

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    Yes but the APPLICATION of the propitiation was NOT APPLIED until you believed. For the record and please read my post carefully again, I didn't say you were saved by "saying some words" or "of your own works" so please represent my words accurately, I have no doubt you expect the same.

    Again, that the propitiation was not APPLIED until you believe. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved"

    You are not saved until you believe and the propitiation of Christ is NOT applied to you until you believe. I know exactly what the PROPITIATION is.

    "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved" When you believe you are saved and that is when the propitiation of Christ is applied to you or when you become its recipient.

    So you claim that if Christ died for the whole world requires they all be saved automatically fails because again, the propitiation of Christ does not apply to anyone (they do not become the recipient of it) until they believe.
     
    #33 Alex Quackenbush, Dec 9, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 9, 2007
  14. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Huh? Jesus atoned for my sin, making me His Bride and God the Father's child, 2000 years ago.

    God did that, I didn't. It wasn't up to me. My only actions were in response to the regenerating work of God.

    If the atonement depended on ME "doing" something without God first regenerating me, I'd be lost. Remember, this old sinner was dead in trespasses and sin. I couldn't do diddly. Couldn't believe, repent, come, call, want, wish, seek or even recognize my depravity.

    So GOD did the atoning, the propitiating. Didn't depend on "Bob" to do anything (thank you, Jesus!) or I'd still be lost.

    Salvation is of the Lord.

    Not the Lord AND Bob. That's the pelagian heresy.
     
  15. Alex Quackenbush

    Alex Quackenbush New Member

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    He did atone but of course what you are running from as fast as you can and either unable or unwilling to respond to is the fact that the propitiation is NOT received until someone believes, hence your claim that if Christ died for all men it requires all men to be saved is erroneous since even BELIEVERS aren't saved until they believe.
     
  16. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    Amen to that :thumbs:
    BTW - Dr. Bob like many other Calvinists does not seem to understand just what makes up the Pelagian heresy.
    In the pelagain heresy Man comes to God without His aiding or enlightening or grace. IF God chose to bestow grace to him it would be nice but it is not necessary. Christ's death was not even really necessary in the Pelagain view. The only view in our day and time that can 'potentially' corrispond to this is that of the JW's and to a lesser degree the Mormons with regard to main line views.
     
    #36 Allan, Dec 10, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 10, 2007
  17. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    You mean didn't realize it until God had already taken it away so you could come sinlessly to Christ??

    Sorry. Just thought that was a statement on the merits you had before God saved you.

    Actually, Bob -- and everyone else -- Jesus said it Himself Mt 12:31-32, etal.) so I beleive it. Christ died for ALL sin but He did not die for UNBELIEF, what we call blasphemy or rejection of the Holy Spirit. That is, He can save anyone who has not done this to his/her dying breath.

    Now the way that Calvinists weasel out of that one is they say you can't reject/blaspheme the Spirit anymore. Cal-oney! In fact it puts the responsibility for going to hell right where it belongs -- on those who don't accept the gospel. They as much as tell God, "I'll do it my way, God." Or "I'll do it the way I believe is right."

    You are doing something now that I suspect you think will be "helpful," aren't you. You're spreading the word.

    So 1) don't say you do nothing. But 2) I'm gonna pray that you did do something other than reject or ignore the gospel of grace when you heard it. I'm gonna pray that you did or will know, assent to, and appropriate the gospel the way any true convert would. I'm gonna pray that you are just saying what you are for political and economic reasons rather than because you want the unsaved to remain outside the kingdom desiring to come in but "unable."

    skypair
     
  18. Alex Quackenbush

    Alex Quackenbush New Member

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    And off he went the heat got turned up. Oh well, what's new.
     
  19. Dale-c

    Dale-c Active Member

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    THere is a term for pathetic lies like this but I can't say it on an open forum like this :)
     
  20. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    What's the issue here, dale? That I pray or that I will pray in that vein? Well, neither is a lie and you'd a been better not to post anything. :tear:

    skypair
     
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