The Will of God in the Fall of Man

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by rigz, Apr 22, 2016.

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  1. rigz

    rigz
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    Genesis 2:15-17 (KJV)
    And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


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    Came across this meme and I wish somebody would answer the young theologian

    Why is is all over sudden a mystery discerning God's will in Genesis? Is it a mystery because we can't comprehend it, or we lack sufficient information, or simply because it cuts through our theological houses of cards?
     
  2. JonC

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    We all have different backgrounds, understandings, and theological leanings. I was unaware that this was even an issue. So, there are theologies that teach God desires men to sin?
     
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  3. rigz

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    Yes there are. Not just desire but WILL.

    I think they call it exhaustive determinism, suggesting that God ordains and controls EVERYTHING, and as such He is the ultimate Cause of everything including the Fall.

    Not to jump gun, do you believe it is possible for man to resist and defy the Will of God?
     
  4. Iconoclast

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    Do you have a God who is not in control of all things that come to pass?
    I think that would be called....idolatry.
    God is not the author of sin.
     
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  5. rigz

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    So, to answer the young man, God intended for Adam to sin when He warned him against sinning?O O
     
  6. Iconoclast

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    Where do you find this revelation of God's intention?
    What scripture teaches you such a thing?
    Do you have a God who is not in control of all things that come to pass?
     
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  7. rigz

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    John Calvin's take;
    From this it is easy to conclude how foolish and frail is the support of divine justice afforded by the suggestion that evils come to be not by His will, but merely by His permission. Of course, so far as they are evils, which men perpetrate with their evil mind, as I shall show in greater detail shortly, I admit that they are not pleasing to God. But it is a quite frivolous refuge to say that God otiosely permits them, when Scripture shows Him not only willing but the author of them.
    http://calvinandcalvinism.com/?p=258

    So God is the AUTHOR of sin:)
     
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  8. rigz

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    You are skirting around the point.

    Since God is/was 'in control' of everything that comes to pass, is He the AUTHOR of all that comes to pass?

    Or simpler, is being 'in control of all things that come to pass' = CAUSING/AUTHORING 'all things that come to pass'?
     
    #8 rigz, Apr 22, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2016
  9. SovereignGrace

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    God is not the Author of sin...that title belongs to Satan.
     
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  10. rigz

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    Calvin demonstrates one of his innumerable #EpicConfusion and illogic but I digress.

    Is it possible for man to defy the will of God?
     
  11. Iconoclast

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    I would have the little boy read the 1689 confession of faith, and then take a look at psalm 115......and I would do the same for any adult who attempted to blame God for man's sin
     
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  12. SovereignGrace

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    Which will? Permissive or decretive? Permissive? Yes. God does not will anyone to sin, they freely choose to sin. Decretive? No. He has decreed to save a mulitude of sinners by Christ's effacacious crosswork.
     
  13. rigz

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    Thank you.
    What do you make of this statement by John Calvin?

    From this it is easy to conclude how foolish and frail is the support of divine justice afforded by the suggestion that evils come to be not by His will, but merely by His permission. Of course, so far as they are evils, which men perpetrate with their evil mind, as I shall show in greater detail shortly, I admit that they are not pleasing to God. But it is a quite frivolous refuge to say that God otiosely permits them, when Scripture shows Him not only willing but the author of them.
     
  14. rigz

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    Which Will do you think was at play in Genesis in the subject verse?
     
  15. SovereignGrace

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    Toughy to say. I could say both. I could say permissive. I lean permissive, but could be both.
     
  16. rigz

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    Err... Whatever will was there, it was defied by man. From my loose understanding of these varieties of will, one can't be defied while there is room for defying the other

    A slightly off topic question, how do you classify this will?
    2 Peter 3:9 (KJV)
    The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance
    .
     
  17. JonC

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    I believe men resist and defy the will of God daily. In fact, I believe that we are born in defiance and rebellion towards the will of God. It is what I refer to as our sinfulness.
     
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  18. Iconoclast

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    Not one of the people that Peter speaks of is going to be lost.
    All of them are going to be saved......2 words for will are used here. The one means decreed destined and purposed to save them.
    God is very willing that multitudes perish.
     
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  19. rigz

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    Thank you
    John Calvin (quoted above) believed that God not only ' permitted' but also AUTHORED sin.

    His erstwhile disciple MacArthur believes Sin is one of God's eternal decrees;
    There’s a sense in which it is proper even to say that evil is part of His eternal decree. He planned for it. … But God’s role with regard to evil is never as its author. He simply permits evil agents to work, then overrules evil for His own wise and holy ends.
    http://www.gty.org/resources/articles/A189/is-god-responsible-for-evil

    What would you say to such claims?
     
  20. SovereignGrace

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    I view God permitting(permissive will) the fall of man so that He could(would) save a multitude of sinners via Christ's effacacious crosswork(decretive will).

    Key word...us-ward...the church. God is not willing that any of His sheep(they comprise the church...the body of Christ) perish. That's the context of that verse.
     
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