The will of God in the salvation of men: Matt:11:27

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by canadyjd, Jul 4, 2009.

  1. canadyjd

    canadyjd
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    Matt. 11:27 "All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son, except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father, except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him."

    Q#1: Do "all things" include the salvation of men? Meaning that Jesus has authority over the salvation of men?

    Q#2: Does knowing the Father equate to salvation?

    Q#3: Does "anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal.." indicate that Jesus chooses whom He will reveal the Father, and thus dispense salvation to?

    peace to you:praying:
     
  2. OldRegular

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    Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD.

    According to the Covenant of Grace it is God the Father who elects, God the Son who takes upon Himself the form of man and pays the penalty for the elect, and God the Holy Spirit who applies the work of God the Son to the elect.

    However, we must understand that God is ONE and the nature of the Godhead is such that perfect harmony, in fact, unity of thought must exist within the Triune Godhead.
     
  3. canadyjd

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    I didn't intend to sound as if I were splitting the Godhead.

    My question is not really which of the persons of the Godhead is active in salvation, but rather if this passage clearly demonstrates that the salvation of man is determined by the will of God and not by the will of man?

    peace to you:praying:
     
  4. Tom Butler

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    canadyjd, just as interesting as Matthew 11:27 is the verse which precedes it:

    25 At this time Jesus answered and said, I thank Thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou has hid these things from the wise and prudent, and has revealed them unto babes.

    So the Father reveals things to some and hides them from others, and Jesus said in the next verse that the Father deemed it good to do so.

    Then in verse 27, here is Jesus choosing to whom he will reveal the Father. And that means that there are some to whom Jesus did not reveal the Father.

    Does anybody have an idea of the criteria the Father and the Son used to decide to whom they would reveal certain things? Me neither.
     
  5. OldRegular

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    It is determined by the will of God. I believe the passage indicates such.
     
  6. RAdam

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    You asked if knowing God equates to being saved eternally. Yes, it does.

    John 17:3 - And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou has sent.

    By the way, in the previous verse Jesus said that He would give eternal life to as many as the Father had given Him.
     
  7. MB

    MB
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    Of course.
    No. Christ is the way of Salvation because it is His righteousness that hides our unrighteousness.
    Salvation can only be had by believing that Christ died for our sins and that He rose again on the third day and sits at the right hand of the Father.1st Cor 15:1-4 The thing about whom the Son desires to have Salvation is everyone. He doesn't want anyone to perrish. All men are drawn John 12: 32.
    He doesn't want any to perrish 2nd Peter 3:9. All power and authority has been given to the Son of God and He chose to die for the whole world that we might have life eternal.
    MB
     
  8. yshwa4life

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    ..a friend of mine has been working on this..i was quite convicted after having viewed it a couple times.

    i'm still prayin about it..i lean towards "partial" freewill; but this was a very convincing argument with respect to the subject of this thread.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O12GZ3cSlcU
     
  9. Shortandy

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    As for knowing the Father and salvation I would submit Psalm 9:10 for consideration. Those who know trust and according to Matt 11 those who know do so because of revelation and revelation come from a God who gives it to some and not to others.

    Since we are dealing with election and free will I would also like to through out a verse for consideration by you all. In my reading I came across Exodus 6:1. What a gem this one is for in one little passage the will of God and the will of man are side by side.

    God reveals to Moses that He will do something to Pharaoh. Clearly a very proactive work that God is going to accomplish in this man. Yet in the same passage scripture reveals that Pharaoh will act under compulsion.

    Guys that was good stuff to this ole boy. Yes I have free will and I may think that my choice was an act of compulsion but Almighty God of the universe is controlling it all. Amen!!
     
  10. brand

    brand
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    One analogy I have seen is that of a beach that would normally have a lifeguard.

    No matter how much a swimmer could wish to be saved, if there were no lifeguard on duty, the swimmer would not get saved. From this viewpoint salvation is all on the lifeguard.

    Of course all analogies break down one way or another. But what good is a "salvation" without Christ. There is no such thing. Why would Christ emphasize over and over faith in Himself if it were not crucial, excuse the pun (cruces=cross).

    I do wish the Bible was more explicit whenever Jesus mentioned faith, that He meant faith in Himself. Faith in faith itself tends to be will-worship, which is confronted squarely by John and Paul.

    So, this is subject to hours, even centuries of debate. The fact remains that God has put a great deal of responsibility on our shoulders for believing Him, but since the whole universe and every concept came from Him, including our very existence, then our belief came from Him.

    My understanding is that every last single soul will have had witness from the Holy Spirit through conscience and nature, and those that from that witness turn and seek God, will find their way to the gospel of the Bible, and futhermore, those that continue to belief in Christ's atoning death and resurrection will be saved, all by the grace of God.

    There is a special grace to souls, such as my daughter, who, in this life, is permanently stuck with the mind of a one-and-a-half year old. She cannot speak and only understands tone-of-voice and actions. She does not know the "name" of Jesus. I believe those, such as her and such as infants that die, do have a special grace.

    From those whom much is given, much will be required. That's us, who can read and write, or at least, who can observe and think.
     
  11. RAdam

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    I've often wondered how the concept of "the gospel will be brought to those that don't reject God through the witness of nature or seek God though nature" works with the Gentiles to whom Paul brought the gospel. Some of those Gentiles tried to worship Paul and Barnabas as if they were pagan dieties themselves after Paul healed a man among them. How about the ungodly philosphers at Athens, one group not believing that God created the world? Had these people accepted God through nature? Were they seeking God through nature? It seems to me that, in general, the Gentiles had basically no concept of the biblical God until the gospel was preached to them. In fact, most were idol worshippers.
     
  12. MB

    MB
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    Where does scripture say God has not chosen the whole world? Please show me just where I might find support for this view of particular redemption.
    What God did to Pharoah was because of God's foreknowledge. God knew in advance that he wouldn't let His people go willingly because of his hard heart.

    Actually a whole lot of compulsion. Pharoah could not not have been so reluctant with out his own freewill choice to be so.
    Actually the only choice you had was to rebel. No man has chosen God. It was God who did the choosing. Jn 15:16
    MB
     
  13. MB

    MB
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    This may help you. As believers in Christ we are Justified by Christ not our selves. Our faith isn't the faith that saves or Justifies us. It is the Faith of Christ.
    Before you disagree please read on.
    Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

    You will notice I underlined our faith which is mentioned after the faith of Jesus Christ.

    Habakkuk propheisied that we would be saved by His faith.

    Hab 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

    I agree it had to come from the hearing of the Word. Rom 10:17.
    Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
    Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

    Your daughter may know more than you or the doctors think. All things are possible with God.
    MB
     
  14. brand

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    I did not mean to forget the crucial aspect of the faith of Christ. I always took that to mean that God is a God of Principle. Of course, God is subservient to no one and no thing, but He has principles that are wholly of His doing. In today's world, to say God is Love can appear to lack that sense of principle, even though it is precisely correct in the context of what love really is (as taught in the Bible).

    He asks us to turn the cheek because that is what He does. He asks us to carry others burdens the extra mile because that is what He does. He asks us to give the shirt off our back because that is what He does. He asks us to forgive seventy times seven because that is what He does. He asks us to love our enemies and pray for them because that is what He does. He even asks us to ask, seek, knock, because that is what He does. This is the over-riding reason for the trinity in my mind. How else could God get under our skin to get us to talk to Him and depend on Him if He never became one of us to show us. How else could sin be paid for without His becoming one who had to pay the price. One thing Jesus demonstrated over and over again is how to depend on the Father, how to trust the Father.
     
  15. BaptistBob

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    No. If you read both the verses before and after, it indicates that he will not teach the learned and proud. In other words he will teach people who come to him humbled like a little child. He will withhold his teaching from people who think THEY should be doing the teaching.

    Hint: Always read the surrounding verses. Don't read a fragment and then consult your systematic theology book. God wrote a lot more words. They probably mean something. (This last comment is not directed at you, canadyjd. No offense intended.)
     
    #15 BaptistBob, Jul 8, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 8, 2009
  16. RAdam

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    How you came up with that is beyond me. The text simply says this, "At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, becasue thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so, Father: for it seemed good in thy sight."

    That says nothing of what Jesus would or would not do, but rather what the Father had done. He had hid these things from some and revealed them to others. Jesus has just gotten through discussing the unhappiness of many with both the ministry of John the Baptist and Himself, and then upbraided the cities that saw His works and did not repent. Hmm, interesting. Let's see, they heard John and said he hath a devil. They heard Christ and said He was a wine bibber and a friend of publicans and sinners. Jesus then says, "wisdom is justified of her children." Interesting statement, that. While many rejected Christ and John, the true children believed and attended unto those things spoken to them. Then, Jesus upbraids those unrepented and unbelieving cities. Here are some that saw the miracles and mighty works but did not believe, did not repent.

    Directly after this Jesus says the Father has hid these things (meaning the things of the Gospel, who Christ really was, etc) from the wise and prudent but revealed them to babes. Man here might say that isn't fair. Christ says, "even so, Father: for it seemed good in thy sight." Ever wonder why Christ appeals to the sovereignty of God here? Perhaps it is to cut off any accusation of wrongdoing against God for not revealing these things to all.

    Of note here are two other sections of scripture. One is Matthew 16:17 where Jesus tells Peter that flesh and blood did not reveal the fact that Jesus is the Christ and the Son of God to him, but rather our Father in heaven did. Another one is Isaiah 29 where the prophet there says that God would "proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid." A few verses earlier he said that God poured upon them the spirit of deep sleep, closed their eyes, and covered the prophets and seers and rulers.
     
  17. BaptistBob

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    Christ said that it is hidden from the "wise and learned" and revealed to "little children." Then he invites all who are "weary and burdened" to learn from him.

    Obviously, in this context, NO ONE is actually "wise and learned," but some consider themselves such. It is to those that God will not teach.

    Prov 3:34
    "God opposes the proud
    but gives grace to the humble."
     
    #17 BaptistBob, Jul 8, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 8, 2009
  18. RAdam

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    No, it is those to whom God has hidden these things. He has revealed who Christ is to others, like Simon Peter. Simon Peter was considered by the world to be ignorant and unlearned, yet the Father revealed to Him who Christ was.

    Those who are laboring and are heavy laden are invited to come and learn of Christ. That invitation still exists today. Come and learn of Christ, He will give you rest.
     
  19. BaptistBob

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    They are examples of the people I am taking about. So?

    Right. They are invited to "learn" and he will give them rest, but ht the "wise and learned" are not. You aren't affecting my case at all.

    This is a common Jewish theme.

    Prov 3:34
    "God opposes the proud
    but gives grace to the humble."
     
  20. RAdam

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    God hid things from some and not from others. That is not debated. The reason is the problem. He's hiding some things from the learned of the day, he's revealing them to others. He revealed to Simon Peter that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. He didn't do this because of something Peter did, but rather because "it seemed good in thy sight." You see the difference? God sovereignly decided to hide something from some people and reveal it to others.
     

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