The will of God in the salvation of men: Matt:11:27

That's because you're not part of the team.:smilewinkgrin:

Jesus spoke the words, Matthew recorded the words under inspiration of Holy Spirit, the church preserved the words, by the power of Holy Spirit, canadyjd repeated the words on the BB, and some people rejected the words because the words do not fit with what they want to believe, so they make up their own words to replace the words of Jesus......

.......canadyjd points out that Jesus disagrees with them, which just states the obvious.

That doesn't make me a spokesperson for Jesus, (as if Jesus were speaking to me audibly) that just means I believe what I read in scripture rather than what I hear from men.

peace to youraying:

 

My intent is to discuss a passage of scripture, hearing what others have to say, and answering questions that arise.

If you think you "know it's intent" to be anything other than what I have stated, you are mistaken.

Please show me from scripture where God has given "all men via the Holy Spirit" enough light to believe?

That's not the point of the question.

Jesus said if those cities had seen miracles, they would have repented.

Why did God not send someone to those cities to do miracles so they would repent?

peace to youraying:

 

He says the "wise and intellegent".

Do you think the "wise and intellegent" are referring to cats and dogs? Horses and donkeys? Monkeys and lions? Or is He referring to people?

Of course He is referring to people.

Of course He is reflecting on O.T. accounts of these cities. And He reveals new truth that was not yet known about those cities. If those cities had seen the kind of miracles performed in the cities of Jesus' day, they would have repented.

You still refuse to answer the question... Why didn't God send someone to those cities to perform miracles so they would repent?

Jesus doesn't say that if He had come to Sodom or the other cities to perform the miracles they would have repented. He said that if those miracles had occurred in the cities, they would have repented.

God could have sent anyone to do the miracles.

I have read your comments on the topic. They are contrary to scripture. They are contrary to the Words of Jesus in scripture.

peace to youraying:

 

But that doesn't change the fact that Jesus told them the reason they do not believe (either Him or the miracles) is because they are not His sheep.

Being one of His sheep, already known by name by Him and the Father, is a requirement to belief resulting in salvation. Otherwise, they remain in unbelief and under condemnation.

peace to youraying:

 

You believe, if I understand you correctly, that God looked out upon the earth and saw some who considered themselves to be wise and intellegent and others who were humble like children. Because God doesn't like those who consider themselves to be wise and intellegent, He decided to withhold certain things about salvation from them. Because God likes those who are humble, He revealed things about salvation to them.

The problem with your belief is that it has people earning their salvation based on their humbleness.

That is why I have stated it is contrary to scripture and the point of the passage.

If I have misunderstood you, go ahead and explain how.

That's my point, they didn't have the ability to repent unless God choose to reveal something about Himself to them. If God intervenes in their lives, they repent and are saved.

God chose not to reveal things to them so that they would repent, even though He could have.

That is just avoiding the question. God clearly could have sent someone to do miracles if He wanted to. Based on what Jesus said, if God had chosen to, they would have repented. But God didn't send anyone. Why not?

You stated that God doesn't hide things from people. Jesus said God the Father does hide things from people. That makes your comments contrary to the words of Jesus. If you can't see that, I can't help you.

You are confusing the point of the passage. The point is that God reveals things concerning salvation to some and hides them from others.

That demonstrates the soveriegnty of God in the salvation of men.

peace to youraying:

 

You are misunderstanding the analogy.

Sheep were kept in a common pen for the winter. Each sheep would recognize the voice of his owner when the owner came to claim him.

They weren't "believers" prior to Jesus calling them. v. 9 says "I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he shall be saved...." Notice the person isn't saved until he is saved through Christ, the "Door" to salvation.

And your theory doesn't take into account the Gentiles, who couldn't have been believers in God.

And you didn't address v.26, although you claim to have addressed it. Jesus told them the reason they didn't believe was because they weren't of His sheep. He had just chastised them for not believing Him or the works He had done.

That is when He says, "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep."

Like you said, it's easy if you don't dismiss the verses that don't support your beliefs.

The touchdown you thought you scored has been called back on penalties. Penalty #1: Misunderstanding of scripture. Penalty #2: Flagrantly ignoring scripture that disproves your theory. Penalty #3: Pretending to address a passage of scripture, when you, in fact, completely ignored it.

Ball on your own 20 yard line. Start all over and try to stay in bounds this time.:smilewinkgrin:

peace to youraying:

 

The passage doesn't say the sheep believed the Father. It doesn't mention the Father at all.

At this point I see that our views of the way scripture is to be interpreted are so different, it is unlikely we will ever come to an agreement.

Therefore, thanks for the input and....

peace to youraying:

 

OK, let's see what the passage says.

Matt. 11:25 "At that time Jesus answered and said, 'I praise Thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that Thou didst hide these things from the wise and intellegent and reveal them to babes.'"

canadyjd's interpretation of this passage is that Jesus claims that God hides things from some people and reveals them to other people.

BaptistBob has directly rejected canadyjd's interpretation, saying that God doesn't hide things from people.

Now, webdog, what does indwelling Holy Spirit say to you about his passage?

Does God hide things from some people and reveal them to other people?

Or, does God not hide things from people?

I will wait patiently while you consult Holy Spirit to give you the answer, and I won't accuse you of claiming Divine authority if you agree with me that the words are not difficult do understand.

peace to youraying:

 

Brother, John 10:8 is not the key to understanding the passage.

To understand John 10, you need to understand that Jesus is speaking to the pharisees that were opposing Him because He healed, on a Sabbath, the man who had been born blind.(chp. 9).

To understand the significance of John 9, you need to understand the concept of the "work of God", which Jesus defined in chp. 6:29 "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

With this definition in mind, we see Jesus addressing the issue of the man born blind in chp.9:3-4 "Jesus answered, 'It was neither that this man sinned, nor his parents; but it was in order that the works of God might be displayed in him. (4) We must work the works of Him who sent Me, as long as it is day; night is coming, when no man can work.'"

Though the miracles demonstrate Jesus is God, and are called works, "The" work of God is to bring belief (salvation) to those Jesus has been given by the Father (His sheep).

And so, the man born blind is a sheep and is healed, the controversy arises, he is kicked out to synagogue, and Jesus finds him (v35) "Jesus heard that they had put him out; and finding him, He said, "Do you believe in the Son of Man?" (v.36) He answered and said, 'And who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?'" (v.37) Jesus said to him, 'You have both seen Him, and He is the one who is talking with you,'" (v.38) And he said, 'Lord, I believe.' And he worshiped Him.

The result of the "works=miracle=healing the blindness" is the "The" work of God (belief in Him whom He sent) is accomplished. The man born blind says "Lord,I believe" and he worshiped Him. He became a believer. That was the very purpose of his being born blind, that Jesus would find him, heal him, and bring him to salvation.

Then Jesus makes a play on the concept of "blindness", saying He would cause some to see and others to become blind. He is clearly speaking in spiritual terms here (9:39-41).

Jesus then begins His discourse of the Good Shepherd in chp.10.

In the case of v.5 "And a stranger they simply will not follow...." and v.8 "All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them."....

.....in the context of the passage, the "sheep" that did not listen or follow the stranger, but listened to the voice of his master, is the man who had been born blind and later became a believer. The ones he would not follow were the pharisees.

When you read chp. 9, you will find the council attempted to coerce the man to denounce Jesus as a sinner (for healing on the Sabbath). The man would not listen to their voice. He would not follow them. He had heard the voice of his master, and he could not denounce Him.

The man born blind is the sheep that would not listen to another master or follow any other but Jesus. He is the one Jesus sought out to accomplish the work of God, which is salvation of the sheep.

With all that in mind, it is clear, then, when Jesus tells the pharisees that "you do not believe because you are not of My sheep", it means what it so plainly says.

Those pharisees were not one of the sheep and that is why they couldn't respond to the miracles, that is why they wouldn't follow His voice, that is why they did not believe.

They were not chosen by God to be one of His sheep.

peace to youraying:

 

Just because you say, doesn't make it true. Show me from the text how my interpretation is wrong, if you are able.

Here it is again:

Perhaps the words "Thou didst hide these things...." doesn't mean God actually hides things from people.

Perhaps it was opposite day. But that doesn't help your position either, since He also says the Father reveals things to others.

But then again, you never addressed the text, did you? You just say "your wrong", as if they proves everything when it doesn't prove anything.

The context is the unrepentant cities. If God had sent someone to do miracles at Tyre, Sidon, and Sodom, they would have repented. Jesus said so. God didn't.

Then Jesus says that God the Father hides things from some and reveals it to others.

Thus, the will of God in the salvation of men.

peace to youraying:

 

Perhaps you could show me where you mentioned this? I can't find it.

I believe you are reading more into the text than is there, or is intended.

You are saying the "sheep" refer only to believing Jews. Those believing Jews wouldn't follow anyone else, ever, prior to salvation.

We know that is simply untrue. The disciples of John the Baptist followed John the Baptist. A couple followed Jesus after following John the Baptist. Matthew was a dispised tax collector, following Rome and seeking money before he followed Jesus. Nicodemas, and Joseph of Armimethea both were pharisees, followed the teachings of the pharisees before they followed Jesus. Paul followed the teachings of the pharisees, specifically the teachings of Gamiliel, before Jesus revealed Himself to him and he followed Jesus. Paul was a Jew, a pharisee, and a persecutor of Christians prior to following Jesus.

Your theory has no legs to stand on.

peace to youraying: