The Will Of God

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by tyndale1946, Mar 6, 2002.

  1. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
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    What is exactly meant by this statement. We know that Christ said I came down from heaven not to do mine own will but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Fathers will that has sent me of all the Father has given me I should lose nothing but raise it up again at the last day.

    I feel all of us that are reading that statement realize this is talking about the reason Jesus Christ came ito the world to save his people from their sins.

    I also heard about the active and passive will of God. I will not go into trying to explain the various attributes of the will of God because I'm no authority on the subject. I haven't studied how the will of God has affected mankind over the ages. I've come here only for information to help my growth in the Lord and to glean knowledge from various seekers of truth like me.

    I may reply if I feel a need to clear up a statement that was unclear to me or make a point myself if I feel by the Lord to answer. Most of the time I will just read the replies and go by the scripture in regards to each one... "Consider what I say and the Lord giveth thee the understanding!"... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  2. Christopher

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    (John 6:37-38) All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. (38) For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

    I hear multitudes of preachers quote John 6:37: "He that cometh to I will in no wise cast out." Brethren, they forget the key part of the verse: "All that the Father giveth me."

    Immediately after Jesus said that those given to Him by the Father would come to Him, He goes on to discuss the Father's will. vv. 37 and 38 go hand in hand. The will of the Father is that all those given to Jesus will come to Him and not be cast out. Notice, ALL will come. This is exactly why Jesus says in v. 39 that the Father's will is for HIm to lose NOTHING. None of His sheep will be lost.

    (John 6:39) And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

    Of course, like the good brother that posted this message, I am a Primitive Baptist. Proud to be, and will not change.

    By His grace, Christopher
     
  3. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
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    Christopher,

    The Last Day is the last day of the church which will be the event called the rapture. I know one Reformd teacher, Mr. Camping, who believes like you do that the Last Day is the end of the world. Rather simplistic idea and clearly not thought through from all angles. Where one finds one error, be sure, others will follow.

    The Lord's overriding interest and concern is the church and not those who refuse His plan of salvation. The Bible, for the most part, was written for His benefactors, the church. So when God speaks of the Last Day He is not highlighting His deep resolve to get the non-elect, and to bring about the final end of human history. He is speaking about the anticipated day for Himself and all of His 'born again' people.

    Respectfully,

    Ray
     
  4. Christopher

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    Either way you look at it, either the rapture or the end of the world, Jesus said, "...of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day." (John 6:9)

    A.W. Pink was a Sovereign Grace Baptist, and he held to a pre-tribulation rapture. Sovereign Grace Baptists are five-point Calvinists as well.

    Premillennialists don't believe that saints before Calvary will take part in the rapture.They believe all saints before Jesus Christ will be resurrected at the "first resurrection" before the 1,000-year reign of Christ, right? Martha said, speaking of Lazarus, "...I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day." (John 11:24)

    If the "last day" refers to the rapture, Lazarus wouldn't be raised then according to you. Martha was wrong.

    By His grace, Christopher
     
  5. Ray Berrian

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    Christopher,

    I never heard that premillennialists believe that the saints before the Cross would be raised after the 1,000 year reign. This may be a rumor or a misunderstanding. Jesus said, ' . . . the dead in Christ [I Thess. 4:16 shall rise first'. I believe here is where Lazarus will be raised from the dead. God speaking through the Apostle Paul did not say 'only the dead since the Cross will be raised.' O.T. saints are worthy of seeing Jesus just like we will on that day. Then the Judgment Seat of Christ; the Marriage of the Lamb . . . all according to His timetable.

    Ray
     
  6. Ray Berrian

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    Christopher,

    I'm glad Dr. A.W. Pink taught correctly about the premillennial view of eschatology. I feel sorry for those who can't put it together.

    Ray
     
  7. Ray Berrian

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    Sorry, Dr. Pink believed in the Pretribulation rapture view. This is excellent.

    Ray
     
  8. tyndale1946

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    My original question was regarding the active and passive will of God? I used the scripture I did only to start the ball rolling. I didn't want to get into eschatology or anything else but the will of God through out the scriptures. If I led any of you brethren on the wrong path I apologize... Brother Glen :(
     
  9. Christopher

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    I never said that saints before the cross would be raised AFTER the millennium, but I said at the "first resurrection" just BEFORE the millennium. Therefore, Lazarus could not be raised in the rapture according to the doctrine of premillennialism as it was taught to me. I was taught that only the church, whether Jew or gentile, who was "in Christ" was going to be raised at the rapture. Hence, you have the marriage supper of the Lamb and all that good stuff.

    By His grace alone, Christopher
     
  10. Ray Berrian

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    Christopher,

    The correct teaching is that the 'first resurrection' is the resurrection of the just/saints. This first resurrection will take place just before the Great Tribulation. [I Thess. 4:17 & I Corinthians 15:51-54 & 15:23

    John 5:25 indicates that not all of the dead at the grave sites will be raised. Jesus said only ' . . . they that hear shall live.' The wicked dead will be raised from their grave sites after the millennimum. [Rev. 20:5] These are the rest of the dead that Jesus said would not hear at the time of the rapture of the church. [John 5:25]

    In John 5:28 & 29 Jesus tells us that eventually all will hear His voice--some to life and some to damnation.

    Some people have been duped into believing that the 'first resurrection' is when each sinner is born again of the Spirit, in many cases, because they have not been privileged to see anything but the one view. A person has to see theology from every vantage point in order to see that which is correct.

    Regards,

    Dr. Berrian
     
  11. Christopher

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    "Dr." Berrian,

    There are several things that I need to get straight. Are all the saints, both before and after the cross going to be raised at the "Rapture?"

    This first resurrection will take place just before the Great Tribulation.

    I have never heard any Premillennialist take this iterpretation. The first resurrection, according to Premillennialists, takes place just before the "Millennium." If you say that the first resurrection is the "Rapture," you are saying the "Rapture" takes place prior to the "Millennium" but after the "Great Tribulation." Those that take part in the first resurrection are also mentioned as reigning with Christ. If the first resurrection is the "Rapture," that means they would be in heaven, precisely what the Amillennialists teach!

    John 5:25 indicates that not all of the dead at the grave sites will be raised. Jesus said only ' . . . they that hear shall live.' The wicked dead will be raised from their grave sites after the millennimum. [Rev. 20:5] These are the rest of the dead that Jesus said would not hear at the time of the rapture of the church. [John 5:25]

    (John 5:25) Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

    This verse is NOT talking about physically dead people, but spiritually dead people. In contrast, John 5:28, 29 are talking about physically dead people.

    (John 5:28, 29) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

    I am really mixed up because I have never heard any of this stuff from a Premillennialists. Is there any way that you could clarify what you said?

    By His grace, Christopher
     
  12. Ray Berrian

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    Christopher,

    'Are all the saints, both before the Cross and after the Cross going to be raised physcially at the rapture?'

    Ray--Yes.

    Ray- This will be the order of the next major events in God's calendar for our world.
    The rapture, the Great Tribulation, the Second Coming and then the Kingdom Age {1,000 year reign of the sovereign Christ on the earth. There are some other lesser events and then the new Heaven and the new earth.

    Notice John 5:25-29. Jesus did not say in verse 25 'The spirutally dead shall hear, and they that hear shall live.' Verse 26 says that the Father and the Son have life in their Being. Verse 27 does not fit in with a spiritual awakening in sinners, because Jesus said that He was going to execute judgment because of His authority over people. What kind of judgment? The evaluation of His saints, right after the rapture at the Judgment Seat of Christ. And to the wicked at the Great White Throne Judgment. Physical resurrection from the dead graves fits very well with His judgment that will absolutely follow for all human beings. To say that vs. 25 is a spiritual resurrection to life, destroys the continunity of what Jesus was expressing.

    John dealt with sinners being raised to spiritual life in verse 24 of John chapter 5. The way to life is by 'believing in Him that sent Me.' Believing brings about the election; not election by God which brings on a belief in Jesus Christ.

    Vs. 25 This is the physical resurrection of the righteous dead.
    Vs. 26 The Father and the Son have and are spirital life in Them.
    Vs. 27 The Son has authority to sit in judgment over humankind.
    Vs. 28 No one will escape His judgment; all will be raised from the dead.
    l. Saved--I Thess. 4:17 & I Cor. 15:51-
    2. The lost--Revelation 20;5 'the rest of the dead . . .
    Vs. 29 A resurrection to life; and a resurrection to damnation
    1. Separate resurrections at different times
    a. Righteous- at rapture--I Thess.4:17 & I Cor. 15:51
    b. Lost--after the Millinimum--Rev. 20:5

    Hope you have a good Lord's Day . . .

    Best regards,

    Ray
     
  13. HankD

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    To answer to the actual subject of "the will of God".

    We are made in His image. we have what is called "a will". Many/most will say that our will is in the bondage of sin until we are regenerated.

    Given that fact, suppose I have a toothache?
    I decide to go to the dentist. I take no pleasure in going but I will myself to go.

    Ezekiel 33:
    11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

    HankD
     
  14. Christopher

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    LIE!

    (John 10:26) But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

    It takes a sheep to believe, not belief to make a sheep. Belief doesn't make you a sheep, but reveals that you are one of Christ's sheep. Jesus said they believed not because they were not His sheep, NOT that they were not His sheep because they didn't believe. What Jesus said and what you said are in opposition to each other.

    By His grace, Christopher
     
  15. Ray Berrian

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    Christopher,

    Apparently you are into sheep now. In John 10:1 ' . . . those who enter not in by the door into the sheepfold . . . ' are not yet sheep. In fact, our Lord called the non-Christians thieves and robbers. Do you remember that sinners are referred to as goats? Jesus reminded people in verse 2 that they have to enter through the Door to be met by the Shepherd--Jesus, in order to be among the sheep of His fold. There is no bonage of the will suggested here. I do, however, see the freedom of people to either enter the Door or stay outside the Door and fold of Christ. Entering in by the Door changes the person from being a goat to a sheep, someone who is loved and led by the Lord.

    John 10:26 Jesus declared that the Jews were not of His sheep because He knows the end from the beginning and knew that they would maintain their unbelief against Him. It is not that He despised these people--not making them sheep first so that they might believe as a result of some Augustinian form of determinism. If you need further proof refer to Stephen's sermon in Acts 7:51 & John 5:40. HankD's post fits in here to help you with your misunderstanding of the Word of God. Refer to Ezekiel 33:11.

    My regards,

    Ray
     
  16. Christopher

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    Tell me if you have to enter into the sheepfold to become a sheep, why there were sheep before Christ ever walked the earth? There was no sheepfold to enter in!

    (John 10:8) All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

    According to Jesus, before He came there were thieves and robbers, but His sheep did not hear them.

    By His grace (not mine own), Christopher
     
  17. HankD

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    Dear Christopher,

    You wrote…

    >>Tell me if you have to enter into the sheepfold to become a sheep, why there were sheep before Christ ever walked the earth? There was no sheepfold to enter in!
    (John 10:8) All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
    According to Jesus, before He came there were thieves and robbers, but His sheep did not hear them. >>

    He was here, just not yet in the flesh.
    David knew Him and heard Him because he was one of His sheep.

    Psalm 23: {A Psalm of David.}
    1 The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.
    2 He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.
    3 He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.
    4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
    5 Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.
    6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.

    HankD

    [ March 11, 2002, 09:42 AM: Message edited by: HankD ]
     
  18. Christopher

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    Yes, but He was never taught the Gospel. David didn't go to the Father through Jesus. That is the covenant of Grace, which didn't appear until the New Testament era. David was still living under the Old Covenant. What about Jacob and Esau. They were under the Old Covenant too, but God chose Jacob according to Election of Grace. Read Rom. 9:11 and 11:5.

    NOBODY, whether Jew, Gentile, or whatever you are, gets saved apart from the electing grace of God.
     
  19. Deekay

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    To answer your question concisely, Bro. Glen, the Bible doesn't make any distinction between "active" and "passive" wills in the divine nature. It's more of a human convention; it allows us to distance a sovereign God from any involvement with evil. Thus, He actively causes good things to happen, but merely "permits" bad things to occur. This is a common way of explaining why evil exists, but I'm not sure that it's consistent with Scripture itself. The biblical writers never try to absolve God; they merely note that He is absolutely sovereign (and presumably active) in all matters. A more comprehensive answer (or, rather, exploration, since no definite answer is possible) is found in books like Divine Sovereignty and Human Responsibility by D.A. Carson. He believes that God wills all things, but stands behind what we would call evil in a more indirect and secondary way. Does that help, or just make things more obscure? [​IMG]

    [ March 12, 2002, 01:02 PM: Message edited by: Deekay ]
     
  20. Deekay

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    Sorry, double post. :(

    [ March 12, 2002, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: Deekay ]
     

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