The Word became Flesh and dwelt among us ( Jn 1:14)

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Eliyahu, Jan 24, 2008.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2005
    Messages:
    4,762
    Likes Received:
    0
    As this issue was argued so much that the previous threads ran so fast, I would like to suggest everyone to think about this matter from different angle.

    1. Word became Flesh ( Jn 1:14)

    2. There was Life in Him ( Jn 1:3)

    3. God created the universe and the living creature by Words ( Genesis 1.2)

    4. Sin entered the world since the Fall.

    5. Messiah was promised to come as the Seed of the Woman, Seed of Abraham, Son of David.

    6. Jesus claimed He is from above ( Jn 8:23) and Paul explained the Second Adam was from Heaven

    7. Death reigned over the human race ( Ro 5:12-19), there was no exception. But Jesus came to save this human race.

    8. All human race are slaves but Jesus was the Son ( Jn 8:31-36)
    Jesus was the only Free man in the world, the others were all slaves of sin.

    9. Hebrews 7:1-5 denies the Mother of Son of God.

    10. God appeared in flesh to Abraham ( Genesis 18:1-15)
    to Jacob ( Genesis 31:13-Genesis 32) and He ate the food, wrestled with human beings.

    11. The first Adam was born from the earth, but the Secnd Adam was born from Heaven ( 1 Cor 15:45-)

    12. Jesus was sinless, blemish, spotless, over whom no death could reign, while Mary was to die, her body was sin stricken, over whom the Death was reigning. Could her egg be used?

    I hope these will be dealt with, and you may add some more issues as well.
     
    #1 Eliyahu, Jan 24, 2008
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2008
  2. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2005
    Messages:
    4,762
    Likes Received:
    0
    I do understand the people who wants to stay with Flesh became Flesh, do not like this title.

    However, the title is in the Bible, and this Truth is absolutely Unique only in the Christianity.

    I believe Only Christianity has the following
    -1) Dead things become Living Creatures
    In this, many Paganism immitate and claim the fake animation. There are many myths like this.

    -2) From NOthing to Some Living Thing, Especially from Invisible Word to Living Flesh

    No other religion that I know of.

    As for 1) I found from English Bible, Exodus 7:11 says the Egyptial magicians did the same miracle by enchantments.

    However, the word used for enchantment is Lahaet or Lat depending on the manuscripts, which is different from Otot ( sign) or Mofat ( Wonder)
    The original meaning of Lahaet is the Secrecy or Mystery. When I study the word, I have got the conviction that it means " Secret ways of deceiving the eyes of the people"

    In other words, Egyptian magicians performed the same Magic show as the todays magicians do.
    God foreknew about their tricks and therefore asked Moses and Aaron to show the real miracle.
    Egyptians may have kept the snakes inside the Tubed Rods, then showed the people only the rods, and the moment they threw the rod, they threw the snakes, and the rods were hidden in the sleeves. This is my thinking and interpretation. Previously I wondered how the magicians could create the living creatures out of the dead materials. But there can be no such thing except the True God the Creator of all the living creatures.
     
  3. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2005
    Messages:
    9,454
    Likes Received:
    0
    The Word did become flesh... there is no doubt about it. God said it, I believe it.

    He had no mother, nor father, no beginning, nor ending. God said it, I believe it.

    His ways are beyond our ways. Our finite minds cannot fathom the infinite God and His miraculous Word.

    We question "How can this be seeing we are human and things only happen this way or that?" Yet, God's Word says it happened, not our way, but His Way.

    It was a supernatural event that can never be explained by natural understanding. God's Word is Truth.
     
    #3 standingfirminChrist, Jan 25, 2008
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2008
  4. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    May 13, 2005
    Messages:
    12,723
    Likes Received:
    0
    You got that right and I believe that is the problem. We are trying to think and do like God Himself.

    BBob,
     
  5. TCGreek

    TCGreek
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2006
    Messages:
    7,373
    Likes Received:
    0
    I love the sweet doctrine of the Incarnation of Christ: "The Word became flesh and took up residence among us" (John 1:14,HCSB).

    "In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death" (Heb 5:7, NASB).

    Let's not try to reinvent this sweet doctrince:

    "And most certainly, the mystery of godliness is great:

    He was manifested in the flesh
    justified in the Spirit
    seen by angels
    preached among the Gentiles,
    believed on in the world,
    taken up in glory." (1 Tim 3:16, HCSB).
     
  6. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2005
    Messages:
    4,762
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think the ovum of Mary could have been used if it repented and believed in Jesus Christ.
     
  7. TCGreek

    TCGreek
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2006
    Messages:
    7,373
    Likes Received:
    0
    What is it about Mary's ovum that needs conversion?
     
  8. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2005
    Messages:
    9,454
    Likes Received:
    0
    The ovum itself becomes flesh when fertilized, so it would not be as much of a miracle to say Christ was implanted in an ovum and then the ovum became flesh as it would to admit that Scripture declares that Christ became flesh.

    The natural need for the ovum was bypassed.
     
  9. TCGreek

    TCGreek
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2006
    Messages:
    7,373
    Likes Received:
    0
    What's the miracle in the Incarnation of Jesus--the Word becoming flesh?
     
  10. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    May 13, 2005
    Messages:
    12,723
    Likes Received:
    0
    We should not forget that God has always been but the body of flesh has not. You must take into consideration both, when you speak of Jesus. Please don't forget the birth.

    Mat 1:16And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

    BBob,
     
  11. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2005
    Messages:
    9,454
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes, I believe that is indeed the miracle.
     
  12. TCGreek

    TCGreek
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2006
    Messages:
    7,373
    Likes Received:
    0
    BBob,

    I'm in no way disputing the wonderful Incarnation of our Savior: "Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewsise also partook of the same" (Heb 2:14, NASB).
     
  13. Chemnitz

    Chemnitz
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2001
    Messages:
    2,485
    Likes Received:
    0
    Actually, it is quite the miracle for an ovum to be fertilized with out sperm. While parthenogenesis does occur in nature, it does not occur in humans. On top of that parthenogenesis if it were to occur in humans would result in a female, so it is rather miraculous for a son to be born from the process.
     
  14. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2005
    Messages:
    9,454
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hebrews 2:14 Therfor for children comyneden to fleisch and blood, and he also took part of the same, that bi deth he schulde destrie hym that hadde lordschipe of deth, that is to seie, the deuel,

    The ' took part', from what I have always understood, meant He only took part of flesh, not the full nature of flesh.

    He took part in the eating and drinking, sleeping, things the flesh need to survive... but He never took the sin nature that all other flesh was born with. He had no propensity to sin.
     
  15. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2005
    Messages:
    4,762
    Likes Received:
    0
    As I explained before, I believe that the ovum or the sperm of the human beings have carried the sin natures. The word Sin natures may be controversial again, but I would say it means the results from the sins.
    So, the sin natures are carried forward thru both sperm and ovum, otherwise, the link between parents and children cannot exist.

    The media thru which the sins of the parents are transmitted to their children must be the sperm and ovum, otherwise there would be no link at all. The sins are not transmitted to the next generations thru the education or personal relationship or nurturing though they contribute for the sins a lot, but the results from the sins are carried over thru such reproductive cells.

    Now when we think about the sin natures ( Results from the sins), we cannot imagine that Jesus could have offered the Blood of Leukemia or Down Syndrome or any other genetic disease, especially mental illness ( Autism)
    Not only Blindness, Deaf, Dumb, but also certain diseases like diabetes may be found as innate handicaps or illness. In a certain sense, all human race may have the defects in their body and in their mental state which are carried forward to the next generation thru the ovum and sperm. The Blemish, Spotless, and Sinless person of Jesus Christ cannot carry such natures and cannot offer such body at the Cross.

    Our bodies were shocked and deformed when the Sin entered this world at the time of Adam and Mary. Someone on the previous thread said women do not inherit the sin natures. But it was the woman who was deceived first and it was the woman who ignored the commandment of God for the first time. In that aspect, no one can be free of defects.
    Even Mary herself could not understand the meaning of what Jesus said ( Lk 2:50), which might have been because there started to be a wall between God and Adam's race since the Fall. She lost her Son maybe because she was concerned about earthly things as usual human beings.

    These factors disqualifies the Adam's race as a spotless sacrifice.

    Jesus Christ had the Life in Him, was the One who created the universe and all the Living creatures, animals and plants by Word.
    He is the God Himself who showed up to Abraham in flesh and ate the food. Jesus Himself identifies Himself as the same person whom Abraham anticipated and saw.
    When He came to this world, God prepared a body for Him thru Holy Spirit. The God who created all the universe and living creatures could create His own body to enflesh Himself and came to this world, without taking any human flesh full of sin-stricken sperm or ovum.

    Simply could Jesus offer the Blood of Leukemia? Was Mary free of any defective genetic factors like Autism, Attention Defficiency Syndrome, etc?
     
    #15 Eliyahu, Jan 25, 2008
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2008
  16. Linda64

    Linda64
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    2,051
    Likes Received:
    0
    Do you mean Adam and Eve?
     
  17. Chemnitz

    Chemnitz
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2001
    Messages:
    2,485
    Likes Received:
    0
    I did not think you believed in the doctrine of Original Sin. I mean isn't that too Catholic?

    Well it might help your understanding if you used a translation that spelled words right.;)

    To say sin is in intrinsic to the nature of the flesh is to call God's creation evil and thus contrary to the truth for God did call his creation good. So, the flesh must be intrinsicly good according to God's creation. Therefore, sin is not intrinsic to the flesh. Which is true for sin is an abnormality that is alien to our nature. The redemption is about the restoration to our original state with God before sin. We are no less human for the removal of sin.
     
  18. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2005
    Messages:
    9,454
    Likes Received:
    0
    God's creation became evil, Chemnitz. That was the curse upon all flesh because of Eve's disobedience.

    And by the way, that version had no spelling errors. It was Wycliffe. They spelled words like that in the fourteenth century.

    We changed the spelling at one point in time.
     
  19. Chemnitz

    Chemnitz
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2001
    Messages:
    2,485
    Likes Received:
    0
    The distortion of God's creation however, is not intrinsic to our human nature. Therefore, God could take human nature using Mary's ovum without taking on our inherited sin and still not lose anything of human nature.
     
  20. TCGreek

    TCGreek
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2006
    Messages:
    7,373
    Likes Received:
    0
    In simple terms, though Jesus was wrapped in sinful flesh as ours, He had not sin or any kind, whether innate or otherwise. Paul writes:

    "For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh" (Rom 8:3, NASB, emphasis mine).
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

Loading...