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The World God so Loved !

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by savedbymercy, Jan 7, 2012.

  1. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Jesus pronounced his judgment:
    How hardly shall a rich man enter into the kingdom of heaven.
    It is easier for a camel to through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter into heaven.
    The man went away sorrowful, not trusting in Christ, but rather trusting in riches. He did not stay to trust in Christ.

    Look at the contrast. Matthew was also rich. He was a publican, a tax-collector. He had a table full of money. When Jesus told him to leave it all and follow him, he did it immediately. He left his table of money right there, rose up and followed Jesus. In joy he followed Christ and obeyed immediately. Not so with the rich man. There is no record of obedience, only of rejection.

    Your work of eisigesis is wonderful; your work of exegesis is horrible.
    Even Jesus said it was doubtful.
     
  2. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    #99 and #101 are excellent posts DHK:thumbs:
     
  3. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    dhk

    Jesus said this Matt 19:26

    26But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
     
  4. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    He didn't say that concerning the rich young ruler.
    Nicodemus was rich, a member of the Sanhedrin, a Rabbi.
    Joseph of Arimathea was very rich, for Jesus's body was laid in the tomb of a rich man--that of Joseph of Arimathea. Both of these men did not allow their riches to get in the way of serving Christ.
    But the rich young ruler did.
     
  5. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    dhk

    Did Jesus say it was impossible for the rich young ruler to be saved ?
     
  6. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    If we look closely at the words of scripture, it is more proof that the rich young ruler was an elect and later became a believer in Christ, though scripture is silent, yet it is presumption either way to declare him saved or lost. However more hints of scripture would lend itself to him being an elect and being led to faith by His Gracious Saviour. Its no doubt that Jesus Loved him, that in itself is a major clue, since Jesus is God, and God chastens all whom He Loves, so does Christ Rev 3:18-19

    18I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

    19As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

    Notice whose speaking here, its Jesus, the one who Loved the rich young ruler. Now the God Man says He Chastens as many as He Loves ! He Loved the young rich ruler Mk 10:21-22


    21Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

    22And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.

    Notice that what the Saviour said to him made him grieve, other scriptures say made him very sorrowful, in other words, it was deeply felt !

    Now as stated, those who Jesus loves He Chastens and since Jesus is God, of which Jesus alluded to with the rich young ruler when He asked him this Matt 19:17

    17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

    Since Jesus is God, Heb 12 says this about everyone God Loveth Heb 12:5-8

    5And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

    6For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

    7If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

    8But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

    11Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

    Now, notice, God's Chastening makes them He Loves feel grevious !

    Why is that important to know ? Because what the Lord told the rich young ruler , Who Jesus Loved, it was very grevious to him. Notice the scripture said , it was grevious to him Mk 10:22

    22And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.

    Lk said this Lk 18:23

    23And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich.

    Notice, God inspired him to write VERY SORROWFUL ! Now this word sorrowful is the greek word perilypos and means:


    very sad, exceedingly sorrowful

    2) overcome with sorrow so much as to cause one's death

    Now this word is made from the root word lypē which means:


    sorrow, pain, grief, annoyance, affliction

    a) of persons mourning

    And this is the same word used in Heb 12:11

    11Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

    You see that ? Jesus caused him grief, Jesus words to him were a chastening affliction to him, because Jesus Loved him scripture said, and whom the Lord Loveth, He chasenteth, which is a evidence of Sonship.

    I believe that what we have with that story of the rich young rulers encounter with Jesus, was the beginning of His Saviour's goodness to him , leading him to repentance..

    I already know many will disagree, but nevertheless, there is scriptural support for this conclusion.

    Jesus who is God Loved Him, pointed out his fault, caused him grief as a evidence of His Chastening Love !, nevertheless it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them that are exercised thereby !
     
    #106 savedbymercy, Jan 25, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 25, 2012
  7. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    DhK I agree with you and disagree with saved by mercy. I was being sarcastic because I wanted him to understand what that type of view of scripture lead to fundamentally. I personally believe that God loves everyone including Esau. And that SBM Got it wrong because hes using semetic comparitive language Jacob I have loved esau I have hated and taken it literally. My son (4 years old) may like pizza a lot but when given the choice between Pizza and Ice cream will say "I hate pizza" in favor of Ice cream. In reality he loves both. However, comparitavely he will choose Ice cream every time. This is the type of language that is being used the passage about Jacob and Esau. God prefers Jacob over Esau in his plans for salvation. But that doesn't mean he doesn't love Esau. (or big red as I like to call him) In fact, SBM misses the scripture that says
     
  8. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Good illustration TS :thumbsup:
     
  9. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    Jn 3:16 tells us of God's Love for the world, but never specifically states that God loved all mankind as individuals without exception, that has been read into the text by those who care little about the Truth of God.

    And such a verse as Jn 3:16

    16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    Must and should be explained by other verses of scripture that speaks on the same subject as God's Love of People.

    First lets look at at an OT scripture that speaks to God's Love to a People Deut 7:6-8

    6For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

    7The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

    8But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

    We find here something extremely important about an immutable God and His Love. That God's Love is set upon a people He chooses look at Deut 7:7

    7The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

    Notice too that His Love is set upon the fewest of all people.. This should be a big eye opener for us, God Loves not the masses of mankind, for those He Loves are the few of mankind.

    Remember Jesus stated about finding the road that leads to life that few find it Matt 7:13-14

    13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

    14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

    Those few, are and will be those God Loved.. So God so loved the world, means He loved a few , chosen ones in the world, His own special ones.

    Jn 13:1

    1Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.

    The jews would have known from deut 7 that God's Love was exclusive for only some, but what they did not know was that some was not limited to them, for God loved some as well of different people groups, outside of their race; but His Love was nevertheless limited to a certain people, but just not to a limited location or race, it was the world at large that this special loved and certain people would be located..
     
  10. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    We are not Israel, and none of those verses apply to NT believers. We are Gentiles not Jews. Try again.
    That is not what Christ said; that is what you said. Stick with what Christ said. He said:
    1. Many there be which go in thereat.
    2. Few there be that find it.
    --The few that find it, the find it of their own accord don't they. There is nothing in the text that says Christ finds it for them.
    When Jesus uttered the words in John 3:16, his words were not just addressed to the Jews or inclusive of them. They were to the whole world, and that is what he said. For God so loved the world....
     
  11. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    dhk

    Thats the Church God is speaking to, not Israel according to the Flesh, because Israel according to the flesh are not the Children of God Rom 9:8

    8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

    God's Love is centered in the Lord Jesus Christ and the Chosen in Him. Rom 8:39

    Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
     
  12. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    God hates sin. Loves all the people of the world. Its as simple as that in the bible. If you are correct Jesus would not have said the principle behind the laws are to love God and love your neighbor as yourself. Why would he tell us to love other humans if God himself hates them?
     
  13. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    ts

    And People. Easu was an person Rom 9:13

    13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

    And Esau here means he as an individual and as represenative of a nation of people..In case you did not know, a nation is comprised of more than just individual..
     
  14. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    I already explained your miss application of that passage. Esau wasn't the only Nation Israel had to deal with there was Ishmael to. And in fact Esau's Nation (big red) was less of a threat than Ishmael, or Philistia, or Greece, or Egypt, or a plenitude of others.
     
  15. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Did God love Nineveh?
     
  16. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Did God destroy Nineveh...40 yrs later???
     
  17. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    No, I think it was more like a hundred years, but I could be wrong.
    However, that begs the question. Did God love the people of Nineveh? Yes, or no.
     
  18. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    I think God loves all sinners but He does not love all sinners in the same sense. Whether you interpret Esau as a person or a nation of people you have to admit that "hate" is at the very minimum a lessor type of "love" than what He had for Jacob whether you consider Jacob either as an individual or a nation of people. If not then you make "hate" and "love" synonyms instead of contrasts and thus make the words "Jacob have I loved but Esau have I hated" to be meaningless.

    There was no place found for Esau to repent (Heb. 12:17 ....for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.). So it is not he that willeth or he that runneth but of God that sheweth mercy, Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Of course as Paul predicts you will have problems with this sovereign arbritrary choice by God but as Paul also replies Hath not the potter power over the same lump of fallen rebellious mankind to do what He wills with it? Who are you that replieth against God? It is really mercy and grace that God would save any God resisting, God hating fallen humanity and He certainly is not obligated by justice to save any but rather justice would call for the complete destruction of all sinners.

    Nothing prevents the salvation of the worst of sinners but their own resistance and rejection to God, to Christ and the gospel and nothing saves the worst of sinners but the pure grace of God in spite of themselves.
     
    #118 The Biblicist, Jan 26, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 26, 2012
  19. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Somewhat. The verse is often taken out of its context, the context of election. He loved or hated them before they were even born, indicating his foreknowledge of the events that were about to happen. The force of meaning is not so much on the person in the present, but rather God looking into the future and seeing what will happen. It is a context of election, what will happen.

    In fact Jesus loved Judas Iscariot, and all the time that he was with Jesus, Christ gave him every opportunity to repent.
     
    #119 DHK, Jan 26, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 26, 2012
  20. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    Why you ask me that ? If Ninevah was Elect. God does not Love anyone He did not choose in Christ before the foundation of the world !
     
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