Their worm

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Askjo, Oct 22, 2003.

  1. Askjo

    Askjo
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    Modern versions omitted Mark 9:44, 46, 48 -- "Where THEIR WORM dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." However the KJV has these passages. Also Isaiah 66:24.

    Please use expository explanation on what a word, "worm" defines on these passages. Does this word, "worm" refer to a damned soul or an eternal worm. If it is eternal worm, what is it? Figurative? If so, what is it? :confused:
     
  2. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    Good question. I am not sure without some study, but have always related it to the skin worms Job talks about and the misery of an eternal gnawing pain, Never looked inot it though.
     
  3. dclark14

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    Robertson's Word Pictures" tell us that the oldest and best manuscripts do not give us vss. 44-45, but that they are a repetition of vs. 48.
    Barnes commentary says that the figure is taken from Isa. 66:24. Itis a figure taken from the heaps of the dead killed in battle that are so great that the worms feeding on the dead would not die. The figure denotes great misery and certain terrible destruction. It is applied to a state beyond the grave. It denotes (an image) of terrible eternal suffering without defining specifically what it is. It does not mean that every sufferer has a special worm.
    Blessings [​IMG]
     
  4. Me2

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    the worm symbolizes mans "will". as it is seen in defiance towards God. it is in constant unrest.

    His (will)worm is in constant perpetual unrest.
     
  5. just-want-peace

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    WOW!! How did you arrive at this concept? :confused: :confused:
     
  6. Me2

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    have you ever seen a worm in a fire?

    the worm and fire are figurative.

    the worm is mans will.
    the fire. the holy spirit. (Gods will)

    hell is an environment whereas a believer is choosing to live by their own will (law) within a context of saving grace.

    when we are "saved". we change ownership. we are no longer satans. we are Gods. and we begin to be taught how to be a child.

    we must "die to self" to begin to receive the truth and revelations of God without refusing or doubting his tutorship.

    here we see the will is not desiring to die. being tormented with the knowledge of "the possibility" of not being in control. of not getting their way.

    everlasting can be seen in this instance of the end of an era, generation, age. yet in this case. its the end of a conclusion. a choice. we "die" to every old choice when it is replaced with a new choice. here the worm dies when the will changes or recognizes its new "lordship".

    the refiners fire of the Holy spirit is constantly humbling the believers will to be transformed into the "mind of Christ".

    most parables include the struggle between law and grace. the flesh (mans will) and the spirit (Gods will). yet its temporary. it ends at some point. a final conclusion.

    and God's will always wins.

    Me2
     
  7. Askjo

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    Huh? :confused:
     
  8. Askjo

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    WOW!! How did you arrive at this concept? :confused: :confused: </font>[/QUOTE]I puzzle.
     
  9. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    I must join the chrorus - huh :confused: :confused: ??

    worm=will? - Sorry, can't see that one at all.
     
  10. Me2

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    first..we all die. mind, body, and spirit.

    when we are born again. our body and spirit dies.
    our mind is dying. our choices are slowly being replaced, until our mindset is totally replaced with the mind of Christ..

    our will or soul, is represented by a "worm".
    a dust eating creature. someone who feeds on the dead of the world.

    when we eat of Gods bread of life..it is poison to the worm. the worm dies.

    in this parable...the "worm" represents carnal mans will. his soul...the "mental" remnants that we subsisted on or hold our prespectives of "who we are", as we live in this world of death.

    If we are born again. our spirit and spirit body has been replaced. the next and last step is the replacement of Mans will...His soul. His mental remnants of a dying world. his "worm"

    the parable speaks of the resultant consequences as we see the results of possible choices. we make the wrong choices on purpose. the proper answer should be to cut the offending "body" part off. or suffer the consequences. the ending result is existing in a particular environment.

    the parable points towards the conclusion of choices. specifically a place and its enviromental attributes.

    wherever one goes. God will always be there.
    He's the refiners fire.
    if one is agreeing with God..the view is positive.
    if one is disagreeing with God..the view is negative.

    we are in fire now.. is it heaven (positive) or hell (negative) to you?

    if your disagreeing with God..its negative and your "worm" is being defiant against Gods will.

    wiggling in discomfort of the flames or the refiners fire.

    until your "worm" dies..completely dead, buried and resurrected...or changing its viewpoint.
    and agreeing with Gods will.

    we will afterwards find out that our "worm" was really not a worm afterall. ... it was our prespective of what we though we were. what we "saw".
    yet after we believe who we are as God tell us. We die to our viewpoint and see through Gods eyes.

    What do we see. A resurrected man. Jesus Christ

    the "worm" and "unquenching fire" is figurative.

    Me2
     
  11. Caretaker

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    Bears striking similarities to Christian Science:


    Heaven is not a literal place of eternal bliss, but a harmonious condition of understanding where a person’s consciousness are in harmony with Divine Mind. "Harmony; the reign of Spirit; government of divine Principle."

    Hell is a state of mind which can include the effects of their improper understanding of Divine Mind and Christian Science Principles. Hell is not a literal place of damnation and eternal torment. Hell exists when a person’s thoughts are out of harmony with the reality of Divine Mind. "Mortal belief, error; lust; hatred, sin; sickness; effects of sin."

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Reality:

    Rev. 20:

    10: And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11: And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
    12: And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    13: And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
    14: And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    15: And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


    We believe that at the moment of death, believers pass immediately into the
    presence of Christ and remain there in joyful fellowship with Him until the
    resurrection of the body at His second coming, after which they will be
    forever with the Lord in glory. We also believe that at the moment of death,
    the unsaved descend to Hell where they are kept under punishment until their
    bodies are raised at the final judgment, after which they will suffer everlasting
    conscious punishment separated from the presence of the Lord. Acts 17:31;
    Matthew 25:31-46; II Corinthians 5:8; Philippians 1:23; Revelation 20:11-15;
    John 14:1-3; 3:16; II Thessalonians 1:7-10; Revelation 21:1-5.


    A servant of Christ,
    Drew
     
  12. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    Wow me2!

    That is some kind of theology. I would love some Bible basis for it. :confused:
     
  13. superdave

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    Interesting, I usually prefer literal historical context to allegory, unless it is clearly deliniated as the genre in use

    The Bible cannot mean what it never meant
     
  14. Me2

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    moreso sounds a lot like dante's "divine comedy" or miltons "paradise lost". or maybe a little sprinkle of Homer
    no wait... sounds like the Roman catholic version.



    1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

    talk to the source !!!


    [​IMG]
    Me2
     
  15. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    Are you claiming, M2, that God some how told you this worm theology? Apart from the Word of God? How did He tell you this? :confused: :confused: :confused:

    All I want, is not a man's teaching, but where you find this theology in the Bible?
     
  16. Caretaker

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    Me2
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    Member # 3258

    posted October 23, 2003 10:59 AM
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    We also believe that at the moment of death,
    the unsaved descend to Hell where they are kept under punishment until their
    bodies are raised at the final judgment, after which they will suffer everlasting
    conscious punishment separated from the presence of the Lord.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Bears striking similarities to Christian Science:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    moreso sounds a lot like dante's "divine comedy" or miltons "paradise lost". or maybe a little sprinkle of Homer
    no wait... sounds like the Roman catholic version.

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


    Rev. 20:

    13: And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
    14: And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    15: And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


    The Word declares but those who cannot receive it reject it.
     
  17. Me2

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    Do you believe God has made indestructable worms that never die and exist in eternal fire?


    the problem seems to be the recognition of something called figurative symbols and the necessity for an outside interpretator (other than mans wild imaginations).

    without those two "problems" being accepted and resolved. its just seems to be a lot of literal mumbo jumbo to some.

    the "worms" and "unquenchable fire" is figurative symbols. its a parable. it symbols points to something other than an unbelievable embellished story.

    Me2
     
  18. Me2

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    Caretaker,

    thats a vision.

    why not when you cut and paste scripture that requires an interpretation.

    why cant you supply it.

    did you notice that "all" the dead were thrown into the lake.

    another figurative and quite absolute picture.
    "everyone" is in this refiners fire of God.

    why not try adding a few more scriptures to open up this vision.


    1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

    2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:


    1Co 15:26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.


    Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death
    Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

    all are placed into adam, into death, into the lake of fire. and finally into Christ.
    no one escapes having their turn in the lake of Fire and brimstone. it is the death of death. being placed into zoa life of God. being placed into christ.

    being transformed into the intended image God has planned for man to become.

    Its called the law of circularity.

    those who are not hurt of this process are those who accept it in humility and trusting God that HE HAS IT ALL UNDER CONTROL. HE LOVES HIS CREATION. and the process has and end and he invites man to join him in assisting his creation through this transforming process.

    we are all designed to become the image which God has planned for man to become.

    the old dies to make room for the new. thats were the "worm" comes into the story.

    Me2
     
  19. Caretaker

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    The righteous dead:

    Rev. 20:
    4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    5: But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

    6: Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


    The resurrection of the unrighteous dead:

    11: And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
    12: And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    13: And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
    14: And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    15: And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    John 3:

    16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life .
    17: For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
    18: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    Romans 10:
    9: That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
    10: For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

    When one dies without Christ they are without hope, And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.

    A servant of Christ,
    Drew
     
  20. Caretaker

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    Me2 do you believe that Jesus is God, and was manifest in the flesh?

    . 1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.


    A servant of Christ,
    Drew
     

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