Then who can be saved?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Jarthur001, Sep 20, 2005.

  1. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Messages:
    5,701
    Likes Received:
    0
    I can across this verse in my "God and I" time this morning. I saw something I never seen before, even though I have read this many times before. I post for your thoughts.

    After Christ had talked with a rich man about salvation, He spoke with the apostles about how hard it is for those with a lot of money to see their need of God. But right in the middle of this passages there are 2 very thought provoking verses.

    Luke 18
    26 Those who heard it said, "Then who can be saved?" 27 But he said, "What is impossible with men is possible with God."


    There is a hint in this response by Christ that seems to say that man has nothing to do with salvation. The key word..”with”. The salvation process is not with man. Salvation is not placed in mans hands.

    Who can be saved? Man can't save himself, yet God can. By giving man a choice as many want to do, the power of salvation is placed in the hands of the man to make the right choice. In this same light, God is standing there helpless till man says yes. And we are also told in other passages that if left up to man, man would never choose God. Man does not seek God. Therefore God would stand there waiting for someone to come to Him, and no one would come. So…it is impossible WITH man to choose salvation.

    On the other side if we place God in full control, God elects who is saved and saves them. God has full power. No waiting on man to choose. This is possible just as the verse says above, because God is in control.


    In Christ…James
     
  2. ascund

    ascund
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2005
    Messages:
    767
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hey Jarthur001

    Thanks for that powerful perspicacious post (the three p's!) harmonizing God's sovereign election and human free will. This balanced view correctly harmonizes God's election through Jesus Christ and human response IN CHRIST.

    The Gospel message is Christ-centered!
    Lloyd
     
  3. StefanM

    StefanM
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    6,434
    Likes Received:
    73
    This is a prime case of theology dictating interpretation.

    No orthodox Christian says that humanity can save itself.

    A prevailing belief of the day was that the rich individuals were the ones blessed by God (and therefore the holiest). The response to Jesus' teaching indicates their amazement, asking how anyone could be saved (especially if those who were in their minds the "holiest" could not enter the kingdom). Jesus' response clues us in on the true insight to be gleaned--we can't save ourselves by our own power. We are dependent on God.

    This pericope says nothing in support of Calvinism or Arminianism, and to say it does, IMO, is to practice eisegesis.
     
  4. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    I saw nothing in James' post that balanced God's sovereignty and man's free will. I believe James was saying man has not been given the choice to accept Christ.
     
  5. Debby in Philly

    Debby in Philly
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2003
    Messages:
    2,537
    Likes Received:
    0
  6. ascund

    ascund
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2005
    Messages:
    767
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hey Webdog

    Perhaps you are right. I will wait to see if I was being overly obsequious or simply and blatantly spurious.

    Lloyd
     
  7. ascund

    ascund
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2005
    Messages:
    767
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hey Webdog

    Perhaps you are right. I will wait to see if I was being overly obsequious or simply and blatantly spurious.

    I need to make a list of Who's Who on this forum. I think I will start a questionaire similar to the one elsewhere in which we note our educational history.

    Lloyd
     
  8. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Messages:
    5,701
    Likes Received:
    0
    StefanM ,


    The truth is we all practice eisegesis. (I have not seen that word in 10 years) It is humanly impossible to extract all bias doctrines which we hold when taking up Bible study. I would also say that my soft Calvin stance is a cooperative in my studies. The fact is we are a part of the past from which we came.

    I would be the first to admit that this passage alone sets no doctrine of election or for that matter freewill of man. I acknowledge that I would be very surprised indeed to find this listed as a support passage in any book on election. All would agree with the assessment you made that the rich are not the holy.

    It also could be said of all on this board bring about the bias we carry with us. Many will not see this passage as election because of their stance for mans freewill.


    What do I see?
    Other than man can not do it on his own, as you stated.
    Come with me on my Bible study this morning...

    I see the passage as talking about the “power” of salvation.

    Salvation does pass human power, but not divine.

    As I read this I was drawn to the power of God and that without it mans salvation is not. In God it is. Also notice that this word was used before by Luke. In chapter 1 verse 37..

    “For with God nothing shall be impossible”

    This statement was made to Mary as she was told that a birth would come to her, and she was thinking this is impossible. My thoughts are that these 2 passages are given as a picture of the work of Christ. Both his birth and our new birth are in Gods hands. God picked Mary, without a choice by her. It is God that sends salvation to us. The birth of Christ had nothing to do with man. Salvation is in not up to man. The full power is in God. Again…my slant in understood to be in place.

    This of course makes one think of another birth. Gens 18:14

    “Is anything too hard for the Lord?” ( to sarah)

    This too is a birth that in mans view “can not happen”. Yet…nothing is Impossible with God.

    Now to show a bias more, one may think the link so far to all these verses are a birth. Yet as I said..the driving force in my thoughts were that man is helpless without God. More to the point..NO HELP in salvation.

    Which makes one also think of Job. Job 42: 2

    “I know that thou can do everything…”


    As to how I got to Election from this passage. My mind set as it were, and with my bias in place I could not help but think of Gods great love. If salvation comes from God and God alone, and without God we have not that power for salvation. And in our blind state we find ourself where we will never call on God…or even seek after God, one has no choice that will HELP. All that we have…all choices that we face before salvation are not a help. We are “powerless”.

    Yet…nothing is Impossible with God.

    Last....anyone that holds to calvin would have to think of this passage afater reading the above.

    Eph 2
    But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.



    In Christ…James

    BTW...nice to have you at my bible study. Next time bring donuts.
     
  9. timothy27

    timothy27
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2005
    Messages:
    205
    Likes Received:
    0
    Good post Jarthur, it isnice to see people who understand God's role in our lives and who is in control.
     

Share This Page

Loading...