Theological implications of an old earth

Regarding the flat earth:
Aristotle (384-322 B.C.) presented many arguments that support his belief in the spherical nature of the earth. Aristarchus of Samos (310-230 B.C.) even proposed that our sun is the center of the universe (for this he was branded an impious heretic). Eratosthenes of Alexandria (276-195 B.C.) calculated the earth's size very closely (his estimate was the equivalent of 23,100 miles [250,000 stades] compared to the modern estimate of 24,900 miles). Even before the Greeks, the Babylonians demonstrated highly advanced observations of the cosmos, eventually leading them into belief in astrology.

The controversies regarding a flat earth in the Middle Ages came directly from a misunderstanding of the Scriptures. While never fully backed by the Church, the doctrine of the flat-earth was promoted at various times by some because of the supposed biblical teachings that seem to support it. The basis of this problem was caused 1). by poor biblical interpretation and 2). by a disregarding the physical evidences around them.

One doctrine that was strongly supported by the church was ethnocentrism, the idea of an earth-centered cosmos. Copernicus and Galileo directly confronted the notion of an earth-centered cosmos that seemed to be taught in the Bible. Reading the translated dialogues that went on at this time is very much like reading posts on the BaptistBoard now. There are some very insightful letters, some good evidences, occasional bogus evidences, all inter-mixed with name-calling and threats: Quite revealing and entertaining.

The OEC verses YEC controversies revolve around our ability to stretch the doctrines we believe around the universe we live in.

For the OEC that means accepting death before sin in the animal kingdom. For YEC that means trying to explain away the diverse physical evidences of the antiquity of the earth. As Pastor Larry posted, we should examine our presuppositions and critically compare them to the Word of God.

Rob

 

Death did not enter the world until after Adam sinned. The sin of Adam brought the entire world into the curse. OEC recklessly ignore this biblical fact.

 

Craig, the Rev verse you quote is a vision and is in poetic, apocalyptic language. It is not meant to be taken literally and certainly does not mean the earth is flat. In fact, as someone who has written poetry since age 8, I think it is a beautiful poetic vision that is being evoked.

Rev 6:14 says:

Is 34.4 says:

But we do not think the sky is flat, do we? But here these poetic passages are describing it as a scroll. It is poetic language.

In fact, the Bible speaks of the earth as a sphere. I cannot find the verse now but will look for it later. If anyone knows it, please post it.

I once read an article that showed how accurate the Bible was about the earth and the universe, but do not have that anymore.

 

But Adam did die physically. Not that day, but eventually he did. He died spiritually and eventually physically.

The Garden is a picture of paradise, fellowship with God. I think it was an enclosed area because God had to have a way to cast Adam and Eve out into the world when they sinned. If they had just been roaming around, there would have been no place to cast them out of, to show that they were out of fellowship and had violated God's command. The loss of the Garden was the loss of paradise, the loss of perfect fellowship with God, and will be restored as the new Jerusalem.

I think you are saying because this was an enclosed area, then death could have been going on outside the Garden. But there is absolutely no indication in scripture of this. Also, since Romans 5 makes it crystal clear that death (it does not specify just the death of men) entered through Adam's sin, then to me death could not have existed before. How would death have started, since God declares death to be an enemy (1 Cor 15:26)? Death could only come through man's sin, and the earth was subjected to death through that as well.

 

But the scripture says he would die "that day". Adams sin brought spiritual death that day, not physical. Now do we take "that day" literal?

Did plant life die before the fall? What did the animals eat before the fall? Did grazing animals not "kill" plant life? Did Adam not pluck a flower for Eve to put in her hair? If he did did the flower die? What about micro-organisms? Did they die as Adam stepped on them? What was the "Tree of Life"? What would have happened if Adam ate of it before the fall? How about after the fall?

 

Several things needs to be pointed out again about YOM, the Hebrew word for day. In its construction as it is used in Gen 1, it always means 24 hours. That construction never means anything else.

It is true that YOM can be used other ways, such as for long periods of time. But when it is used that way, it is different construction. For instance, the day of death is a different construction. It is beyom 'akalekah (give a take a few tranliterations ... I never was good at that. I figured when you can read the real letters, why transliterate) ... beyom is hte word YOM with a prefix preposition (not an absolute state as in Gen 1). The 'akalekah is a Qal infinitive construct the word "akal" (to eat) with a 2ms suffix (ka) meaning "your eating." So the literal translation is "the day of your eating."

But more to the point, he did die that die. It was immediate spiritual death and that spiritual death had a physical affect. The physical affect took place over time. The fact that death is the result of sin is the clear teaching of the Bible. OECs cannot truly account for this teaching.

Also, the death from sin applies to the nephesh, the living soul which animals and man had. The plants did not have them. So therefore, plants, flowers, etc., could have died prior to the fall. Remember, those green things were given for food.

As for the flat earth, Craig's assertion that all these biblical characters believed in a flat earth is unsustainable. There is no biblical evidence that they believed in a flat earth.

The key things at stake in the OEC/YEC debate is this, IMO:

1. The integrity of the text -- The question is not "What could God have done?" Many say "God could have created the world through evolution over millions of years." YECs agree with that. He could have. But he said that he did something different. If God created it in millions of years through evolutionary, or theistic evolutionary, or divine fiat, or some such thing, then he would have told us that. The God who cannot lie told us that he did it in six 24 hour days. If we believe in an OEC that involves creation over a long period, then we have a problem with the integrity of the text.

2. The problem of death -- The Bible declares that sin entered into the world through one man, and death by sin. For those who would claim Satan brought sin into the world, we must counter that Satan may well have brought sin into the universe, but not into the world, meaning the life creation of God. The Bible is explicit on this. To assert death to living things (nephesh, not plant life) prior to the fall of Adam is to give an express denial of the biblical text. I believe in this case it leads to faulty understanding of soteriology, though not necessarily fatal. The intergrity of the text is also in play here. God said that death came by sin. OEC says that death came before sin. How do we resolve the conflict? I think we go with God ...

 

Here you go Marcia. That verse is in Job.

Do you not know? Have you not heard?
Has it not been declared to you from the beginning?
Have you not understood from the foundations of the earth?
It is He who sits above the circle of the earth,
And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers,
Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain
And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.
He it is who reduces rulers to nothing,
Who makes the judges of the earth meaningless. Job 40:21-23 NAS


Adam died physically because he did not have access to the tree of life (Genesis 3:22-24).

Can it be plainer?

1 Corinthians 15 is an interesting chapter! Read it carefully and see how it applies to death as it relates to animals (It doesn’t). There is no resurrection of the dead with animals even after Christ’s resurrection.

Eden was a picture of paradise, fellowship with God, Some call this period of time, Innocence. Heaven will be so much more grand.

Rob

 

I suppose that the Mat verse that I am about to quote is also in poetic, apocalyptic language, and that it is not meant to be taken literally.

Mat 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
Mat 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

 

Do you have any data to support your statement? I posted one of their documents. Let's see what you have to post.

 

RSR,

Your document is not from one of the genuine flat earth societies!!! I posted a document from one of the real ones, along with the name, address, and telephone number. Give them a call and see if they are a joke or not. Besides that, Matthew was not telling us jokes about Jesus (at least not in my opinion).

 

Is there a verse that says spiritual death leads to physical death? Or is that an assumption?

Spiritual death, yes.

We agree then that death existed before the fall. At least some form of death.

No, He didn't say "24 hour" days. Thats the whole discussion.

I am not saying you are wrong, I play "devils advocate" for my own understanding. These are the questions I ask myself and struggle with. It is not clear to me that we are dealing with "24 hour" days.

 

Romans 5, in conjunction with Gen 2 and 3 make it clear that death is the result of sin ... both spiritual death and physical death. Furthermore, Rom 6 teaches that the wages of sin (i.e., spiritual death, cf Eph 2:1-3) is death, which death Christ died (i.e., spiritual death). In other words, the physical death of Christ was the payment for our sin which springs from our spiritual death.

No, we don't agree, I don't think. The "death" that existed before the fall was not the death of life with a nephesh. There is no evidence that anything with a nephesh died before the fall. The "death" of plants is not that kind of death.

Actually, he did say 24 hours. That was the point of what I posted. Here it is in a nutshell.

1. YOM as used in Gen 1 only ever means 24 hour days.
2. When YOM means something other than 24 hour days, it is always found in a different construction, never in the Gen 1 construction.

The Hebrew text is explicit about these being 24 hour days. The way that God inspired the text is a way that only means 24 hour days. If God had intended something else, he had much better ways to say it. If God had intended 24 hour days, there was no other way to say it.

 

Pastor Larry writes: “In its construction as it is used in Gen 1, it always means 24 hours. That construction never means anything else. These grammatical arguments that can be persuasive, but IMO in light of the almost insurmountable physical evidence, the linguistic evidence pales. Galileo confronted the same hurdles with his encounters with the church of his time, albeit he was no biblical scholar but he held his own quite well.

We should also need to look at the text in its historical context. This is not a scientific treatise on creation. The text of Genesis 1 and 2 confronts the Egyptian religious practices of polytheism and idolatry, something that the Israelites had been confronted with daily over the previous 400 years. Moses declares that these Egyptian gods are not gods at all, they have no power; he declares that the one true God of the Hebrews is the only God. It’s an “in your face” to the Egyptians and a Hallelujah to the Israelites. Moses proclaims that our God is the All-Powerful One, the Creator from the very beginning. “These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created" (Genesis 2:4) is a final nail in the coffin of the Egyptian divine family tree; all nature emanates from our God and is interwoven with divine purpose and intent.

God does not promise us that all things in His word will be equally clear. Some things may remain a mystery. In this the people sitting on the sidelines of the debate can take comfort. Trust in God and believe His word it is true.

Rob

 

But is it?? It doesn't seem so, apart from the presuppositions involves in it.

This is not substantiated from Scripture. Why are we looking to these kinds of explanations when the very simple ones work just fine. God was revealing for all human history to see exactly where the world came from and how it got here. It is not scientific, but it is not a response to anything. It is God telling us what he did.

 

Rev 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

personally, I don't see how one can use this as proving the writer believed the earth was flat.
The word "corner" refers to a point of origin and is related to the "four winds" which would be the four points of the compass NEWS.

HankD

 

"Metaphor", "similie" --
some words Bible readers

should know about.