There Is No ‘Third Way’

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Revmitchell, Jun 2, 2014.

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  1. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
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    ...Pastor Cortez cited Wilson’s argument as foundational to the position he and his church are now taking — “agree to disagree and not cast judgment on one another.”
    But, there is no third way. A church will either believe and teach that same-sex behaviors and relationships are sinful, or it will affirm them. Eventually, every congregation in America will make a public declaration of its position on this issue. It is just a matter of time (and for most churches, not much time) before every congregation in the nation faces this test.
    The impossibility of a “third way” is made clear in Pastor Cortez’s own letter.
    In one paragraph, he writes:
    “So now, we will accept the LGBT community even though they may be in a relationship. We will choose to remain the body of Christ and not cast judgement. We will work towards graceful dialogue in the midst of theological differences. We wee that this is possible in the same way that our church holds different positions on the issue of divorce and remarriage. In this issue we are able to not cast judgement in our disagreement.”
    But in the very next paragraph, he writes:
    “Unfortunately, many who voted to remain traditional will now separate from us in a couple of weeks. We are in the period of reconciliation and forgiveness. Please pray for us in this. Then on June 8, we will formally peacefully separate, restate our love for one another, and bless each other as we part ways. It has been a very tiring and difficult process.”
    In two successive paragraphs the pastor refutes himself. His church is not going to take a middle ground. He states clearly that “we will accept the LGBT community even though they may be in a relationship.” And his church did not unanimously “agree to disagree,” for a significant portion of the church is leaving on June 8, just 48 hours before the Southern Baptist Convention convenes in Baltimore. Many “who voted to remain traditional” are now forced by conviction to leave the church.


    http://www.albertmohler.com/2014/06...ts-face-a-moment-of-decision-and-so-will-you/
     
  2. quantumfaith

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    Have you seen this......

    Note, if you do watch it....be sure to watch it in its entirety.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlMC2kjx4HY
     
  3. Ed B

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    There was a lot of good in that message. I winced a few times at some theological points, but in my opinion if you change the name from Catholic to Christian then the general message of the video is good.
     
  4. quantumfaith

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    Yes, Ed my thoughts too. There was much good, though in the beginning, one might be tempted to give up on it. There is much that we evangelicals disagree with regarding catholic theology and positions.
     
  5. Iconoclast

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    there was no repentance there was no scripture there was no new birth mentioned in this presentation
     
    #5 Iconoclast, Jun 2, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 2, 2014
  6. Judith

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    The SBC is set to deal with this under their rules which states that church must be removed from membership. If the SBC does not kick them out I will leave the SBC.
     
  7. 12strings

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    Are you saying you will leave your individual church if the national SBC does not vote to kick them out? ...Even if your individual church thinks they should be kicked out? Or that you hope your church will leave the SBC?
     
  8. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    Absolutely correct. There is no third way. A church will deny the "rights" of the LGBT community to have their so-called unions blessed in a church, or not. They cannot have it both ways. It is impossible.

    What I would like to see discussed both at the convention and at the local level is the need to minister to the LGBT community. What is not said often enough, at least from my observation and participation, is the fact that we can minister to them without "affirming" or accepting anything about their lifestyle. Obviously the biggest stumbling block to such an attitude is the LGBT community themselves. They demand affirmation and acceptance. Anything less than such affirmation and acceptance becomes "an affront," "bigotry," and "hate."

    What they utterly fail to realize is that the demand they make is not of us as people, but of God through us as His people. We are in no more a position to "accept" or "affirm" them, to make a positive response to their demands, than we are to change the course of the Sun, Moon and stars. Those have been set by God Almighty, and He isn't going to change the course of the heavenly bodies at our whim. Nor is our whim going to be the cause for Him to negate His very word.

    Nonetheless, we have to love them. He demands it. Too many of us are just as demanding of moral behavior from immoral people as those immoral people are of that immoral behavior being "accepted" and "affirmed." Neither demand can be met. Both are against the very natures of each, that stand in opposition to one another. But if we can't find ways to overcome the rhetoric and anger that is rapidly building a wall between us, we will never reach them.

    Mark Hall of Casting Crowns wrote the lyrics in "Jesus, Friend of Sinners":
    "No one knows what we're for,
    Only what we're against,
    When we judge the wounded.
    What if we put down our signs,
    Crossed over the lines and loved like You did?"
    It is time for us to put aside the speechifying we do over behavior that comes naturally to the sinner and begin to realize that the sinner can't help it. But God can. And the only way the sinner can know that is if someone loves him enough to tell him.

    Southern Baptists need to know that "love" isn't "acceptance, affirmation, or approval." It is unconditional. It is perfect, and while we're not perfect, we serve a perfect God, and He can work through us to do anything He wants done.

    But we have to let Him first, and right now, the vast majority of us don't.

    I've served as an alcohol and drug addictions counselor for years. I've recently become certified as a disordered gambling counselor as well, and would enjoy reaching for my sexual addictions certification. I see in the LGBT community the same aspects of addiction I see in the people whose afflictions I treat. It is a compulsion, I am convinced of it, but I have no empirical proof.

    These aberrant sexual behaviors are deeply rooted and and embedded in an intricate, elaborate maze of environment, parenting, personality and perhaps even something genetic -- not that there's a "gay gene" but that something awry in a chromosome somewhere causes them to seek comfort from the influence of others or within themselves. Much like I suspect more readily identifiable addictions are "genetic" to that effect, the key that unlocks the answer to sinful behavior is found first in Christ, and then deep in the human mind and in the human soul, and in the case of LGBT practices, it is extremely difficult to overcome. But I firmly believe the love of God can do so.

    I simply pray that we as Southern Baptists attempt such love on a great and grand scale and not ignore them because we don't like them. That message has to come from our leadership for anyone to hear it.
     
  9. Judith

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    If the SBC does not kick them out and my church does not drop affiliation with the SBC I will leave that church.
     
  10. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    One, the SBC probably will kick them out.

    Two, yours is a terribly narrow-minded viewpoint, given that all SBC churches are autonomous and what New Heart Community Church does is irrelevant to all other SBC churches, and for that matter irrelevant to the SBC in general. Autonomous means "acting independently, or having the freedom to do so." What New Heart did was to act autonomously.

    Nonetheless, the issue is, does New Heart embrace, affirm, welcome, or whatever term one wants to use, LGBTs? The answer is "Yes." Do the SBC bylaws require them to be "dissaffiliated" for being such an "embracing, affirming, welcoming" church? The answer, again, is "Yes."

    But even if they are not disaffiliated, so what? It has absolutely no effect on you, your church, your pastor, or anyone else in the your church. Leaving a church you're happy with because of something a church half a continent away does is ridiculous.

    So maybe there's something else going on here that you're not talking about?
     
    #10 thisnumbersdisconnected, Jun 3, 2014
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  11. Yeshua1

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    Regardless whether SBC, or any other Baptist church....

    ANY church that does actions s willfully against God and His Bible needs to either repent and come back to the Lord and his ways, or get kicked out!
     
  12. quantumfaith

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    Excellent and very well said missive. :applause::applause::applause:
     
  13. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    So, disobedience at the church level is cause to be "cut off" from the Lord? Care to provide Scripture proving that?
     
  14. Judith

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    Narrow minded, yes absolutely and I thank you for seeing that as I see it as a virtue. Does it have anything to do with me personally, yes it does. Anytime I am affiliated with someone or something I am in question asto their actions when they do not repent if I continue to stand with them when they do wrong. We are told not to in scripture; "what fellowship does the righteous have with the unrighteous." While I realize that organizations such as the SBC and even individual churches or denominations mean more to many people than the word of God, such is not so with me. For a church to financially support immoral behavior I will not be part of and every SBC member church supports the SBC. Verbal rebuke is not enough in this case. I pray they do the right thing, but if not I will not follow them into the pit or smear the name of Christ by remaining part of them. So yes I would leave a church I am happy with if the SBC does not put that church out and if my church remained in the SBC. A little leaven, leavens the whole lump and I am not tied to the Baptist denomination, a particular church, pastor, group of people or the SBC, but I am tied to the Lord and He says come out from amoung them.
     
    #14 Judith, Jun 3, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 3, 2014
  15. Iconoclast

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    Judith,

    Some see themselves as...."more loving" than Jesus. So much so that they turn from the word like those in jeremiahs day who said peace ,peace when there is no peace.
     
  16. Iconoclast

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    Paul did not have any trouble with this supposed "maze".....NO TROUBLE AT ALL...he called it sin. He also said be not deceived ;

    9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

    10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

    11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
    In our day many are deceived by leaving the word of God for carnal philosophy.
     
  17. Yeshua1

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    The church that actively supports/takes positions against the Bible are in rebellion against the Lord, and until leadership and the flock repent and turn back to his ways, God will chaistise them, will not honor that group, and they need to have disciplinary action taken against them unless/until repent!

    NOTHING to do with eternal state, everything to do with being in rebellion!
     
  18. quantumfaith

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    So Icon, let me understand....do you feel it necessary, or appointed to place a sign in front of your church warning that no sinners, particularly of the sexual variety are permitted within the walls of your church. Is that how you would deal with this?
     
  19. Iconoclast

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    QF,
    Nothing I posted suggested that.Christ Jesus has come into the world to save sinners...indeed. Jesus and the apostles called sin sin however.
    No place in scripture do we have this double talk about environment and complicated mazes. etc...

    Those wicked ANGELS who told Lot to flee Sodom.....did not "affirm" the sodomites in their sin...did they?

    All fornicators need the gospel. if you read one more verse ...indeed we see this....11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

    they were not Affirmed and accepted, they were informed and converted.
     
  20. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    So did I. But given that you don't like my profession nor my approach to rooting out sin among the brethren who suffer from -- cover your eyes, here comes that word you hate -- strongholds, I'm not surprised you missed that part of my post.

    No worries, however. Praise God, on a daily basis, I get to present Christ to both the sinner and the saint. One day, perhaps, you'll realize that I also call sin, sin. However, I also realize that some Christians will struggle with some sins even though redeemed through Christ and are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. And when those come to me, we explore Scripture together and learn how to escape the clutches of addiction, of sin, of Satan himself. Those who are not Christians often leave the few weeks we get to spend together at the very least considering that their heretofore rejection of Christ must now be called into question, and reconsidered. Some even leave those sessions having confessed Christ and walk in newness in Him.
    Who are the "unrighteous" Icon? Who? Those who sin? Then that's everyone. Believe it or not, you sin. So, by your application of this passage, you're declaring yourself unrighteous.

    Or are the "unrighteous" those who do not have a saving faith in Christ? If that's the case, then we have a whole different cast of characters here. We have you and me and QF and a whole host of imperfect people with sin, addiction, strongholds and struggles under one umbrella: The saved.

    We're all unrighteous in our own right. But when we know Christ, we have the same reckoning as Abram, who believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. What did Abram do afterward? Lied to two kings about who his wife really was. Did he confess his lie? No, with Abimelech he tried to justify it! He said that really, in a way, "I sort of did tell the truth. Honestly, I had to tell a white lie to save my life." Read Genesis 20:9-17. Learn. Abraham does not really come clean does he? So who seems to be the big sinner here: Abimelech or Abraham? A lot of people would say it was Abraham because he did know better. He'd already been through this once before. They'd be right.

    But notice in v. 14, God blesses Abraham!
    Genesis 20, NASB
    14 Abimelech then took sheep and oxen and male and female servants, and gave them to Abraham, and restored his wife Sarah to him.
    15 Abimelech said, "Behold, my land is before you; settle wherever you please."
    16 To Sarah he said, "Behold, I have given your brother a thousand pieces of silver; behold, it is your vindication before all who are with you, and before all men you are cleared."
    17 Abraham prayed to God, and God healed Abimelech and his wife and his maids, so that they bore children.
    Who gets blessed here? Abraham does. Who did the sinning here? Abraham did. What do you conclude from that? You know, the only thing I can conclude is that God continues to bless His children despite their evil behavior.

    He doesn't deny them heaven, like you've just claimed here. He does chastise them. Abraham and Sarah had to wait a very long time after this to see fulfillment of the promise of God that they would have a son. I can only imagine that Abraham's lies stood in the way of God's favor. We can never expect the full blessing of God when we sin. But neither do we fear being cut off and denied His promises because of sin. It is covered at the cross.
     
    #20 thisnumbersdisconnected, Jun 3, 2014
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