There is no condemnation to them in Christ Jesus !

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by savedbymercy, Jun 2, 2015.

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  1. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
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    Rom 8:1

    There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    This scripture tells us a few things very specifically, #1 That none who are in Christ Jesus has been charged with any condemnation [from God], and Paul also tells us their first date in Christ Jesus 2 Tim 1:9

    9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

    Yes those Chosen in Him before the foundation Eph 1:4 have no condemnation charged to them by God because of it, even then Grace was given them, and Grace Justified them even then Titus 3:7

    7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

    When were believers initially Justified by His Grace ? It was when it was given them in Christ Jesus before the world began ! What were they Justified from ? They were Justified from the condemnation they would incur in Adam here Rom 5:18

    18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

    That word condemnation is the greek word katakrima and means:

    I.damnatory sentence, condemnation

    Its used only 3 times in the NT In Rom 5:16,18 and Rom 8:1, and so we understand it to be saying that there is no damnatory sentence from God to them that are in Christ Jesus, and thats because of Grace given them in Him before the world began !

    Because of Gods Grace already given them in their Surety/Mediator Christ Jesus before the foundation, when they did in time, in Adam incur condemnation Rom 5:18, God could not charge them personally with it, but it [their condemnation] was charged to Christ Jesus ! The damnatory sentence they incurred was imputed/charged on Christ Jesus, and so we read:

    Isa 53:6

    6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

    That word laid means to:

    iii.to encounter, fall upon (of hostility)

    Thats the same force of idea as in came upon in Rom 5:18a

    18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon/fell upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

    Their condemnation fell upon Christ and He was to encounter the Hostility of Gods Wrath in Justice for their iniquities, and not them !

    This results from being in Christ where there is no condemnation Rom 8:1 !
     
  2. SovereignGrace

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    Who walk not after the flesh...


    Sinners walk in the flesh prior to salvation...
     
  3. SovereignGrace

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    You're teetering on Eternal Vital Union where God's elect were never lost. Eck!
     
  4. PreachTony

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    By your post count, you appear to be new. A word of advice: Don't stray too close to SBM. His theology is off the deep-end.
     
  5. SovereignGrace

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    Thanks.

    If he's supporting eternal justification, then he's supporting eternal salvation. No one is justified without being saved. They're mutually inclusive.
     
  6. SovereignGrace

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    ===As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.[Eph. 2:1-10]

    Every one of us, and yes, even God's sheep, were at one part of the world. If we were never part of the world, we could not be called out of the world...


    The World Hates the Disciples

    ===18 “If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. 19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.[John 15:18,19]

    If the sheep were never part of the world, then they could not be called out from among the world. And no one of the world is justified while in that fallen sate.
     
  7. savedbymercy

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    There is no condemnation to them in Christ Jesus !2

    Following point #1 That Rom 8:1 gives us a few different specific facts to know, the first being that there is not and cannot be any condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, which are in Him by the Purpose of God before the world began, inwhich at that time Justifying Grace was given them in Him 2 Tim 1:9

    9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

    Now #2 Those who are Christ Jesus by Election, shall eventually in due time according to God's Purpose, shall walk after the Spirit !

    Rom 8:1

    There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    Its imperative that those whom God does not condemn, its imperative that they begin a walk after the Spirit, which means they shall become a Born Again Believer ! Thats what walking after the Spirit denotes, a walk of Faith, for Faith is the fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22 !

    To walk after the Spirit we must first be born after the Spirit like our Brother Isaac Gal 4:29

    29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

    Note: This above verse Gal 4:29 is proof that OT Believers such as Isaac were born by the Spirit no different than NT Believers ! The word after as in born after the Spirit, its the greek word κατά and it means by, its used that way here Mark 6:32

    And they departed into a desert place by ship privately !

    Jn 10:3

    To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

    And so it is, all who were Chosen in Christ Jesus, where there is No condemnation to them at all, by that they also became Christ's Offspring /Seed, as such they must eventually be born by the Spirit in order to walk after the Spirit or by the Spirit !

    All men are born either naturally and or Spiritually by the Time and Purpose of God Ecc 3:1-2

    To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

    2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;

    Theres a time in the Purpose of God for those who were given Grace and Purpose in Christ Jesus before the world began 2 Tim 1:9 a time for them to be born both naturally and spiritually according to God's Purpose !
     
  8. savedbymercy

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    Please review back to me each point I made in the OP and then we can discuss them ! Thanks !
     
  9. SovereignGrace

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    I did address them but I'll do so again.


    There is no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus:


    The exact opposite of condemnation is justification. No one is justified without being saved.


    Who walk not after the flesh:

    Christians live in the flesh, but don't walk in it. God has changed them inwardly, and that inward change is seen in the outward, ie the flesh.

    But after the Spirit:

    Sinners can not walk after/in the Spirit. So unless you're advocating that the sheep are born saved...


    In the other verses you posted in the OP, you're grossly abusing those applications to your doctrine. God chose us in Christ from the foundation of the world, as the apostle wrote in Ephesians 1:4. Yet, all of the redemptive works of Christ had to take place in time. In Ezekiel 34, this shows us as sheep not having a Shepherd. Christ died and was arisen to fulfill that for us.

    We were chosen out of the world. If we were never part of the world, Christ could not have chosen us out of it. We walked in an accord with the world, as this was written in Ephesians 2:

    As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.

    Look at what the apostle wrote. 'In which you' and 'all of us' was the apostle addressing the church at Ephesus.

    Now that I've addressed your OP, hopefully we can have a healthy, hearty, and fruitful discussion.
     
  10. PreachTony

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    SG - Prepare yourself for a healthy does of "Evasion! Rabbit Trail!" That's what SBM does. If you don't accept his theology in full he accuses you of evading him. Even answering his points, as you have done, will earn you this accusations. I, and several others, have been around that mountain enough times.
     
  11. savedbymercy

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    sg

    Thats not what i asked you do !
     
  12. SovereignGrace

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    This is what you asked me to do....

    I did review them and even gave you a biblical answer as to why I believe your application of those scriptures are wrong.

    Now, the last time I checked, this is a debate board. The forums on here are for debating. You know, a point, counterpoint interaction. You posted the OP and I responded to it, twice. You have failed to address either of them.

    If you don't want to debate, that's fine. But that shouldn't fly here. There are blogs you can create where you can write away.

    www.wordpress.com

    www.blogspot.com


    These are two sites that you can make free blogs for others to read.

    But this is a debate board and you should act accordingly.
     
  13. Revmitchell

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    Just a heads up if you continue with this guy you will do nothing but run in circles. It is best to to leave it alone.
     
  14. SovereignGrace

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    Thank you sir.
     
  15. savedbymercy

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    I know what I asked you to do and you haven't done it!
     
  16. SovereignGrace

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    I have now responded to you three times now. I ask you in the kindest way possible; will you please respond to what I've posted?
     
    #16 SovereignGrace, Jun 4, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 4, 2015
  17. SovereignGrace

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    This is all well and good except for one thing; you're grossly misapplying it to your doctrine. I agree that Christ bore the sins of the elect and none else. Yet, there was a time in the elect sheep's lives they were still of the world.

    ===My sheep wandered over all the mountains and on every high hill. They were scattered over the whole earth, and no one searched or looked for them.[Ez. 34:6]

    ===For this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I myself will search for my sheep and look after them. 12 As a shepherd looks after his scattered flock when he is with them, so will I look after my sheep. I will rescue them from all the places where they were scattered on a day of clouds and darkness. 13I will bring them out from the nations and gather them from the countries, and I will bring them into their own land. I will pasture them on the mountains of Israel, in the ravines and in all the settlements in the land. 14 I will tend them in a good pasture, and the mountain heights of Israel will be their grazing land. There they will lie down in good grazing land, and there they will feed in a rich pasture on the mountains of Israel. 15 I myself will tend my sheep and have them lie down, declares the Sovereign Lord. 16 I will search for the lost and bring back the strays. I will bind up the injured and strengthen the weak, but the sleek and the strong I will destroy. I will shepherd the flock with justice.[Ez. 34:11-16]

    If the elect sheep were eternally justified, as it appears you approve of, then there would be no need to find that which was never lost. None of His sheep were justified from birth.



    Again, as I stated in an earlier post, we were chosen out of the world. How could we eternally justified, never under condemnation, if we were of the world?

    Again, the opposite of justification is condemnation. One is either justified or condemned. But to say we were never under condemnation is taking Ro. 8:1 and stretching it past it's breaking point.
     
  18. savedbymercy

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    You still evading my request! How can you debate my points if you don't understand them?
     
  19. SovereignGrace

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    Okay. I am sorry that I haven't understood what it is exactly you are expecting from me. I thought I had addressed what you wanted me to do.


    So, what is it that you exactly want me to do? What points do you want me to study to understand your position?
     
  20. savedbymercy

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    I told you already a few times , if you don't understand there is no need to debate, you not ready!
     
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