Theres the original greek again!

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Ps104_33, Dec 25, 2001.

  1. Ps104_33

    Ps104_33
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    I just finished listening to a debate between Dr. Jas. White and Tim Staples, a Roman catholic apologist. In the question and answer period a gentleman asked Mr. Staples to explain Rom 5:1 "...being justified by faith...." to be past tense etc. Both men went to the greek to support their position coming up with opposite viewpoints. So, which greek translation do I believe. What is an ignorant fundamentalist like me to do? :confused: I now have two greek scholars giving me two different interpretations of the verse, both talking about "future conjunctives" and "accents on the peanut" or something like that.
    :(
     
  2. Forever settled in heaven

    Forever settled in heaven
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  3. Harald

    Harald
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    Hi. The verb for justify in Rom. 5:1 is "dikaiôthentes". According to Friberg & Friberg's Analytical Greek New Testament the verb is an aorist verb and it is in passive form. Most Bibles, I think, have correctly translated it as a past verb, i.e. from the standpoint of Paul's writing the letter the thing (justification) had already taken place in the past. The passive conveys the fact that the recipient(s) of the justification was passive and not active in his own justification. Compare this with the begetting from above unto spiritual life (John 3:3, 1:13 etc.) wherein the person (sinful man) is not active in the begetting but to the contrary God is the One who actively begets the spiritually dead unto life. In John 3:3 it should be "Unless someone (or, one) be begotten (passive)from above, he is not being able to see the kingdom of God."

    For a most excellent and Christ-exalting treatise on justification I would refer you to the work of a Particular Baptist, Samuel Richardson - Justification By Christ Alone.
    http://www.mountzionpbc.org/Index/index08.htm
     
  4. DocCas

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    Psm104_33, the Greek word translated "being justified" (Greek: Δικαιωθεντεσ ) is an aorist, passive, participle.

    The problem here is not that some people don't understand Greek, but that they don't understand English!

    The English past, passive, participle is very similar to the Greek aorist, passive participle.

    The Greek aorist, passive, participle simply means that something happened in the past to you (not by you, that is the meaning of passive), and we identify the participle in English by the adding of either the "ing" or the "ed" endings to the words. Note that "be" has the ending "ing." In English this does not denote an action, but a state of being, and that justify has the ending "ed" indicating the past tense. The meaning here is "being in a state of being justified." It does not mean that we are in the process of being justified, as the Catholics like to assert!

    In today's early 21st century version of Modern English, we no longer use phrases such as "being justified" to indicate a past, passive, participle, but have changed to phrases such as "having been justified" or a similar phrase that is, to early 21st century ears, less confusing, and gives the sense of something that happened to us in the past and not a process or continuing action.

    But you are correct, the Greek helps, but a proper understanding of English can also make the meaning clear. Unfortunately, all too few native English speakers really understand the grammar and syntax of their own native tongue!

    Hope that helps. [​IMG]

    [ December 26, 2001: Message edited by: Thomas Cassidy ]
     
  5. rlvaughn

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>(Greek: Δικαιωθεντεσ )<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Thomas, how do you make the Greek characters? I have recently found out how to make Spanish accents and characters with the ALT key, but don't know any way to type the Greek alphabet.
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>But you are correct, the Greek helps, but a proper understanding of English can also make the meaning clear. Unfortunately, all too few native English speakers really understand the grammar and syntax of their own native tongue!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>This quote, taken with Psalm's original post, make a very important point. The Greek is not a "rabbit's foot" that one can wave over the text and magically understand something he couldn't understand in English. The Greek is a very good help, but very few of us actually learn enough of the language to read and understand it, and are often still bound to rely on someone else's opinion of what it means. If possible, learn Greek and also Hebrew, but don't forget to continue to learn and improve your English as well (I am saying this to those whose native tongue is English. If it is not, insert your native tongue where I have inserted English). Most of us will never understand another language as well as we understand our own (not that it isn't possible, just a practical fact - we won't). Surely anyone who wants to understand the Bible can understand in their own language, unless it's not available in their language. In my opinion, one of the biggest mistakes we make is not trying to improve our own "tongue".

    [ December 26, 2001: Message edited by: rlvaughn ]
     
  6. DocCas

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rlvaughn:
    Thomas, how do you make the Greek characters? I have recently found out how to make Spanish accents and characters with the ALT key, but don't know any way to type the Greek alphabet.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Go to "Settings" "Control Panel" "Keyboard" "Language" click on "Add" then scroll down and highlight "Greek." You may also want to select "Left Alt+Shift" so you can switch between English and Greek by hiting the Left Alt and Shift keys at the same time.

    In order to read the Greek fonts you may have to go to "View" than "Encoding" "More" and select "Greek - Windows." [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  7. Ps104_33

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    To All,
    Thanks for all your help but I am fully persuaded in the protestant (and correct) interpretation of Rom. 5:1. The point I was trying to make is that one of the men (either Staples or Dr. White) was lying or was misled himself.
     
  8. Chris Temple

    Chris Temple
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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ps104_33:
    To All,
    Thanks for all your help but I am fully persuaded in the protestant (and correct) interpretation of Rom. 5:1. The point I was trying to make is that one of the men (either Staples or Dr. White) was lying or was misled himself.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Lying is probably too strong a charge. No doubt the Catholic was involved in eisogesis: projecting hsi predetermined interpretation onto the Scriptures.
     
  9. TomVols

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    You're right Chris. James White is never wrong [​IMG] Especially when dealing with apologetic issues with RCC, KJVonly, Mormons, etc.
     
  10. Chris Temple

    Chris Temple
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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TomVols:
    You're right Chris. James White is never wrong [​IMG] Especially when dealing with apologetic issues with RCC, KJVonly, Mormons, etc.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Well I didn't say he is never,wrong but he is a good protestant apologist. He destroyed the "Calminian" position of Norman Geisler in The Potter's Freedom. :D
    I met him two weeks ago and found him to be very personable.

    [ December 28, 2001: Message edited by: Chris Temple ]
     
  11. Ransom

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    Ps104_33 said:

    So, which greek translation do I believe. What is an ignorant fundamentalist like me to do?

    How about a little homework?
     
  12. Chick Daniels

    Chick Daniels
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    Chris,

    I also appreciated The Potter's Freedom, which showed that Geisler's book would have been better titled, Free but Free.

    Chick
     

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