These verses would not be needed

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Iconoclast, Jun 17, 2015.

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  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
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    The Lord Jesus Christ died a covenant death for the Children the Father had given to Him.


    11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

    12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

    13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
    14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

    15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

    16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.


    Some have recently contended for the idea that Jesus died for all men...not just those He came to redeem.

    If that were the case there are many verses that we quote and take for granted that would have not been needed in scripture as they make a distinction as to who were the actual objects who are redeemed.

    here are just a few;

    In Acts 20 Paul speaks of the church which He purchased with His blood
    28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
    In jn 10 Jesus speaks of laying down His life ...for the sheep

    Isa 53 speaks of....many...
    25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
    26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

    27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.



    If as some claim..."all men" were intended.....these distinctions would be redundant. To deny the Covenant nature of the perfect atonement is to deny part of the heart of the gospel itself.
     
  2. revmwc

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    John said He died for the whole world, that is all mankind, so are you saying John was wrong?

    1 John 2
    1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
    2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
    3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

    John 3:
    16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
    18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    This doesn't say only those who the Father Gave Him, nor does it say only those who were chosen, it says all who will believe and 1 John 2:2 says He became the Propitiation for the sins of the Whole world, so do we throw these verses out and thus anything John may have written? By the way John 3 were quotes from Jesus.
     
  3. Iconoclast

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    I am saying that your understanding of first jn 2:2 is wrong.

    I am saying as you use the verse......causes the cross to be only potentially saving.....but not actually saving anyone unless something is added to the work of the cross.....

    I am saying to ignore the Covenant nature of the cross is to be defective in your understanding and teaching of the truth of God.....

    for starters!

    see the next post-
     
    #3 Iconoclast, Jun 17, 2015
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  4. Iconoclast

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    revmwc

    Read the text more carefully.....John is writing to[My little children,] that is the believing ones who sins have been propitiated already.....

    [ he is a propitiation for our sins] the wrath of God towards them has been turned away......you cannot say that of the world...they are still under the wrath of God right now:thumbs: Rom1......There are others who exist worldwide....who will yet become saved by God's grace...that is what is spoken of {but also for the whole world}...they also will be saved from God's wrath if and when they believe.

    Every verse does not say every thing...it does not say you must be born from above either, or believe the trinity, nevertheless it is still true.
    You and others seek to bypass all of the fine verses that speak of the electing grace of God in salvation....His eternal love set upon unlovely, ungodly sinners...

    2 and he -- he is a propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world,

    The sins of......is added by the translators.....God has his "children" all over the world.....no one has a problem with that at all. The only problem would be if you are suggested the whole world is saved as in every person ever born.....I do not think you are suggesting that:thumbs:

    No need to throw anything out. We just need to believe them correctly and not put one against another, but instead see how they mesh together....:thumbs:
     
  5. DHK

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    Nothing like taking verses out of context is there?
    What does the context say?

    Act 20:17 But from Miletus having sent to Ephesus, he called over to him the elders of the assembly.
    --He is meeting with the elders or pastors of the local assembly at Ephesus.

    And among many other things he tells them:
    Act 20:28 Take heed therefore to yourselves, and to all the flock, wherein the Holy Spirit has set you as overseers, to shepherd the assembly of God, which he has purchased with the blood of his own.
    --It is quite evident that the "assembly" referred to is a local assembly that the pastors or shepherds had to feed. That assembly had to had the ability "to assemble" as every assembly does. Thus it is the assembly in Ephesus that he is writing to, and no other. He purchased the "assembly of God" in Ephesus with his own blood.
    There is no other interpretation.
    There is application however. Just as he purchased the believers that make up that particular assembly (those that had come to Christ by faith and had obeyed the Lord by baptism), so has he purchased all biblically based churches composed of such obedient believers. Christ gave himself for the local church according to Eph. 5.
     
  6. Iconoclast

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    DHK
    the Apostle Paul did a very good job addressing the Ephesian elders and warning them of dangers in that day but that is not the subject of the original post the subject is for whom the Christ die and unless its people he's in covenant relationship with there is no need then to make a distinction like the verse s do that He died for the Sheep he died for the elect He died for the church
     
    #6 Iconoclast, Jun 17, 2015
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  7. DHK

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    Then use scripture that supports your premise. Obviously Acts 20:28 does not. You took it out of context as I just demonstrated.
     
  8. revmwc

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    Let's look again, 1 John 2:1-2a:
    1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
    2 And he is the propitiation for our sins:

    To this point John is writing to believing ones as you state.

    But you fail to see the next phrase, "and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world" notice he says not for ours (believers those who have accepted the propitiatory sacrifice already), but also for the sins of the whole world. That means those who haven't received Christ. It cannot be just for those who are believers, it not for ours (believers) only.

    Romans 8: is clear too,
    28 "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
    29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
    30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

    Because God foreknew the choices that each person would make to receive Christ. He did not elect people to be saved randomly, He chose them because He knew who would choose for Him and who would not. Those whom He knew would He predestinated them to be conformed to the image of His dear Son. He elected the because of His foreknowledge. Jesus died for the sins of every person ever born.

    One sin and one only sends a person to the Lake of Fire, that is, John 3:18 "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

    Believe and not be condemned those who hat not believed are condemned already, not because of the sins they commit but because they have not believed. His blood became the propiatory sacrifice for all mankind.
     
  9. Iconoclast

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    revmwc

    again...".the sins of "is not in the text.

    yes...agreed...he says not for ours only....that is those who are already saved, but for others who will also believe by God's grace as I said already.
    Jesus told them to GO into all the world.....He has His elect everywhere

    Now the sins of is not in the text.Yet as the gospel goes world wide the sins of those who believe will be propitiated.

    In one way it has already been accomplished at the cross as Jesus died for an exact amount of people, and an exact amount of sins.

    The fact of this was taught by Jesus himself in John 8 when He said anyone who dies outside of Union with Christ.....dies "in their sins"....plural.

    This is another verse we do not need if all sins were propitiated.

    No of course not. It means ours and also those who will believe before the last day.

    This verse is clear yes....so why do you twist it???

    The text says no such thing......we all know it says...and WHOM he did foreknow.......that is sinners who He set His love upon......This says nothing about anything man does ....not one word.:thumbsup:

    God does not do "random". You are speaking about God as if He was a man.

    God has clearly revealed His plan and purpose to the Church.

    9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

    10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

    11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
    This fantasy is not taught in scripture.scripture is clear in Psalm 14, and romans 3....no one seeks God ...no not one.

    That is a flat out perversion of the word of God. Let's get back to the OP if we could as you clearly are way off course with this butchering of Romans 8....

    You should edit and delete these comments, before anyone reads them:wavey:

    Your wrong understanding of biblical foreknowledge does not affect the true issue.


    wrong as per jn 8 and James......any and all sin sends people to hell.again, not addressing the OP.

    You express several errors here....edit and delete them before they are seen!
     
  10. Iconoclast

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    DHK

    Ok...let's look at your latest offering:laugh:

    Nothing is "taken out of context". Nothing....The OP is not about the message to the Ephesian elders....it was a fine message, but that is not being addressed.
    The context does not change the verse at all. What does change the verse is your dispensational fragmenting of the word of God.

    No kidding!!!

    Yes He did! He has purchased every living stone that makes up every local church on earth with His blood.

    The very fact that Paul mentions that He has purchased the church 0f God with His own blood shows the premise I opened this thread with.

    If Jesus died equally for all mankind....there would be no need to make this statement at all showing the church as distinct. this went right over your head because of your agenda.....but once again you fail:laugh:

    ecclesiology is a fine topic, but not the subject of this thread...this has nothing to do with the issue......red herring:laugh:

    Jesus purchased every true assembly with His blood. That Paul addresses
    this one has nothing to do with the issue.
     
  11. revmwc

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    God foreknew Jacob and Esau, we see this in Genesis 25:
    23 And the Lord said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.

    He knew exactly the choices Esau would make. There was no doubt that Esau would not choose to serve God. Jacob would Esau wouldn't God foreknew it.


    God foreknew David before He was conceived, Psalms 139:

    13 "For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
    14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
    15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
    16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.
    17 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God!
    how great is the sum of them!"


    God foreknew David before He was ever conceived, He knew him in eternity past, God knew exactly what choices David would make, very clear.
     
  12. revmwc

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    The Covenant of Grace was made by Christ on the Cross. For all of mankind, Christ as John 3:17 and 18 state came not to condemn the world, that is mankind,
    17 "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
    18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

    It doesn't say those He chose might be saved, that is redeem all of mankind.

    Genesis 3:15 was the promise of a savior to Adam and Eve that is all of mankind.

    2 Thessalonians 2:
    13 "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
    14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
    15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
    16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,"

    He chose us from the beginning, that is before the world began we were chosen why, because of His Foreknowledge. Romans 8 makes it clear too!
     
  13. Iconoclast

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    sorry you are misusing the biblical term .....it is not the events...it is the people. .........WHOM HE DID FOREKNOW......not.....What events would take place.

    You are also drifting away from the OP.
     
  14. DHK

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    You ignore the Ephesian elders; you ignore context. Pity isn't it.
    How on earth does dispensationalism enter into this. You need to read up on a good book on hermeneutics. Once you ignore the context (which you just have) you cannot come to a proper conclusion of the passage. The allegorical method of interpretation just doesn't work. Context is vital. It is imperative! And yet so easily dismissed by you.

    But the context is speaking only of one church, the church at Ephesus.
    The context is speaking only of the church at Ephesus. I am able to call my local assembly The Church of God at whatever, but that doesn't make it the fictional universal church. Paul did not speak to the Ephesian assembly and its elders in mystic riddles.
    It is ungodly to laugh at the Word and the truth of Christ, but such you will do.
    Note this very clearly Icon. Your above response was to this statement:

    And among many other things he tells them:
    Act 20:28 Take heed therefore to yourselves, and to all the flock, wherein the Holy Spirit has set you as overseers, to shepherd the assembly of God, which he has purchased with the blood of his own.


    IOW, You simply laugh when I quote Scripture. In another translation I quoted Acts 20:28, you drew your unwarranted assumptions and then laughed. That certainly is a clear case of "eisigesis" isn't?

    Nothing has gone over my head here except:
    for your butchering of Scripture.
    Your deliberate ignoring of context.
    You allegoric method of interpretation.
    Your confusion between interpretation and application.
    Your refusal to deal with the actual text of scripture and habitual eisigesis wherein you impose your ideas into the text instead or actually expounding what the text says.
    There you go laughing at the word again.
    Is everything a joke to you?
    The verse is speaking about the local assembly and you think it addresses your OP. It doesn't. But you ignore the context so you are blind to the truth of Scripture.
    Look at your contradiction.
    You are drawing an application from this passage. Then you dismiss the actual passage saying the passage has nothing to do with the application that you have drawn.
    There is one interpretation but many applications. You have your application, so throw away the actual meaning of the Scripture. You don't care about that any more. That is what you are saying.

    That Paul addresses this one (Ephesus) has nothing to do with the issue.

    Amazing! How could you come to any of the conclusions you have without that statement first???
     
  15. Iconoclast

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    DHK

    Everyone can see what you are trying to do once again.

    The little laugh emoticons are directed at you and your agenda....not the word of God as you falsely suggest.

    You cannot help yourself from the personal attack when you cannot answer.This last response is a thinly veiled attempt to distract from your inability to get at the issue raised quite successfully by the OP.

    The thread is not about the Ephesian elders. I said that several times now.It is about Pauls description of salvation and atonement by blood being made for the church of God.

    I hold a strong local church view.....so your weak attempt to shift this discussion to discussing local versus universal church is off topic also.

    I do not hold to a universal invisible church.....so again I do not need you to speak on my behalf falsehoods that I do not hold.
    Do you ever get tired of building these strawmen.....or have you become a strawman contractor.

    Try and focus on the OP if you could that might help you begin to understand the discussion.

    It is not about allegorical ideas......the idea is very simple and plain for anyone who does not come to disrupt the thread.
    For you to suggest as you have that the laughing emoticon is about scripture is quite misguided........you are not confusing your mistaken notions with the teaching of scripture are you????
     
  16. Jerome

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    Huh?

    The Confession, 26:1
     
  17. revmwc

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    Hebrews 2:

    11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

    We have been sanctified because of His work on the cross that is not in question. Christ died for all mankind whether Jew or Gentile all can be sanctified by Him and all who receive Him are sanctified and therefore joint heirs with Christ.

    12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

    A quote by the author of Hebrews of Psalm 22 which denotes the humiliation of the Lord Jesus, thus this verse deals with the Jewish brethren. Who are in the midst of the true church.

    Psalm 22:21-22,
    21 Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.23 Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.
    13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

    In the non-bolded section the Messiah that is Jesus places all His trust in The Father. As Calvin says: “since He depends on the aid of God His condition has community with ours.”
    Psalm 18:2; Romans 15:9, 9 "And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name."

    Christ respect in calling the Gentiles is seen here. In Psalm 18 David spoke in the person of another. And Christ is to be the King as David was. God has given to Christ all that were elected, according to His the Father’s foreknowledge. The Gentiles glorify God and Romans 15:9 shows the fulfillment of Psalm 18.

    Who was this book written too? The Hebrews that is the Jewish brethren among the church. The children God gave through the Holy Spirits conviction who were Hebrews are rightly given to Christ just as now the gentiles are too.

    (Isaiah 8:18), “Behold, I and the children which Thou hast given Me.” Just as He would keep the Israelites through it all He too will hold those whom the Father gave Him. It is all because of God’s Foreknowledge in that all that are given were predestinated to be the children God gave to Christ.

    14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

    No question that Christ is seen here too. He came as flesh and blood that is He was fully human as well as fully God. Through His death He destroyed the power of death that is the devil, yet we know that the devil still influences things today, but the death which came when the devil tempted Eve has been defeated. We become alive spiritually at salvation and spiritual death was conquered, we will become alive from the dead at the Resurrection and for the church that will be at the Rapture. Death is fully defeated at the end of the Kingdom age when the new heaven and new earth are instituted death will be conquered forever, it is all because of His efficacious work on the cross.

    15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

    Everyone who is Christ, who places their faith and trust in him have been delivered or for those who will and have too will be delivered through the fear of death and those who were in bondage to sin that is the Old Sin Nature are freed from that Bondage through the Lord Jesus Christ efficacious work on the cross.

    16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

    Christ became the seed of Abraham that is His descent in Humanity. He came as the Jewish Messiah who was promised and fulfilled the first portion of prophecy concerning His Kingship.
    He didn’t come we are told to redeem angels, that is the fallen angels including satan. But this is very clear He came as a descendant of Abraham just as promised but He was also from the seed of woman as promised in Genesis 3:15.

    28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

    The pastor’s responsibility to the local New Testament Church is to feed the flock of God. The Holy Spirit calls men to pastor the church and to feed his specific flock. The flock which Christ purchased with His blood whether Jew or gentile. Those in the local church are Christ at least the ones who have received Christ as their savior by Grace through faith.

    In 10 Jesus speaks of laying down His life ...for the sheep

    He laid His life down for the sheep, for by His shed blood the price for all sin was paid. 1 John 2:2 says He became the propitiation for the believer but not for us only but also for the whole world that is all mankind. Guess what the satisfaction for man’s sins that is every human being has been met, it just takes a conscious choice by the unbeliever to receive that gift. God knows exactly who will and who won’t receive Christ because He is an Omniscient that is all knowing God.

    Isa 53 speaks of....many...

    25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
    26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
    27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

    Christ loved the world and gave himself for the sins of mankind, “whosoever believeth on Him shall have everlasting life” those who "believe are not condemned but those who believe not are condemned." It all about God’s grace through Faith that all are saved. God's covenant of Grace to all mankind is that He would provide a savior. He promised that savior way back in Genesis 3:15. Every person has a chance to respond to the Gospel in whatever way the Holy Spirit chooses to reveal it to them. God is the one who foreknows who will respond and because of that foreknowledge He predestinated those to be conformed to the image of His Dear Son.
     
  18. DHK

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    1. What am I trying to do?
    2. "Everyone"? An answer to both of these questions infers you claim omniscience.
    I quoted the Word of God without comment and you laughed. What should one conclude. You weren't laughing at me. I made no comment.
    In your last post it wasn't me that the personal attacks were coming from.
    I referred to the OP consistently. You are not able to deal with your own OP.
    And this is a good example. You want to quote Acts 20:28 in support of the OP, but one cannot interpret Acts 20:28 without context, which means going to Acts 20:17:
    Act 20:17 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.
    --In verse 28 he is speaking to the Ephesian elders.
    Your OP says otherwise:
    This, according to most, refers to the universal church. That is how most would understand it. Isn't that what you meant when you posted your OP?

    Again, your OP says differently. See above.
    I do. Acts 20:28 was taken from the OP. I disagree with you taking it out of context to support your OP.
    First, your laughing emoticon was directed at scripture not me.
    Second, your use of scripture ignored context and was not interpreted in a literal way.
    Third I am not disrupting the thread as the verse was taken from the OP, not inserted by me. I simply don't think that the verse you use cannot support your premise, and you haven't demonstrated to me that it has supported the OP.
     
  19. Iconoclast

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    Rmac


    eph5:25does not mention all mankind.....it only mentions the church as the objects of the cross work.......for you to just pronounce what you do is to avoid the implications of the text...what you did with hebrews 2 is also pretty bad but I will deal with that in subsequent posts
     
  20. revmwc

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    25 "Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
    26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
    27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish."

    God loved the world enough to send His Son to die for mankind. Those who trust Christ become the Church that Christ gave Himself for. He sanctify all who believe, He has cleansed us of our unbelief. He will at the end of the TRibulation present her to Himself as His bride. For seven years in Heaven after the rapture she is being prepared. she will not have spot or wrinkle or any such thing she will be holy and without blemish as we see.

    Revelation 19:

    7 "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
    8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints."

    Here she is prepared as verse 27 chapter 2 states. Then she with the Lord Jesus enters into the Kingdom for 1000 years as He rules upon the throne of David.

    As the majesty that He is shown to be in the book of Hebrews.
     
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