They have fallen from Grace

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Tazman, Feb 14, 2007.

  1. Tazman

    Tazman
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    Mal 3:6 "I the LORD do not change."

    So can we go to the OT to find out how God feels about todays Christianity? I would think so. Besides the Apostles scriptures were those of the OT. I can think of them referring to there own words as scripture (not to say their words have not authority, but I'm simply saying that they taught many believers to continue and to have faith in Jesus based on the OT). So.....

    1 Tim 1:8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly.

    Well, how does one "use it properly"? One should read it to learn about the Love of God keeping in mind that he does not change. So though God give commands to certain people they may not have been given directly to us, we should at the very least trust that if God expected righteousness then he expects righteousness today. Also His response to sin then would be the same for today. If one sees God's heart in the command.

    Duet 30:11-14
    11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, "Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, "Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.


    From the scripture above is it not clear that the ability to obey (love) God is within out grasp. Meaning we have the ability aforded by the commandment from the Commander to do what he want us to do. So the word is in us so that we may obey it. "May obey..." meaning that just because its in us and near us does not mean that we will do what God want us to do. We still have to follow the Spirit of Gods Words by choice. We must decide to be a slave to that righteousness.

    So, I believe that God give us the oppertunity not only to come to Him through faith in His Word, but also to make daily choices to follow the Spirit (Word) of God. To be righteous by doing what is expected by God.

    Well, this would apply to those who put there faith in God. But what happens to those who fall from that grace?

    Galatians 5:4
    You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

    What does it mean to be "justified" by something? Basically, you trust in it soley as your source of salvation. People who live this way often do not see the need for repentance and mercy. But have FALLEN from grace.

    Some today, however, have said that you cannot fall from a forgiven state and that state being grace obviously.

    But how does God see it in the OT? I think the same as it was seen in the early church:

    Ezekiel 18:24
    "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.

    Unfortunately, many "Christian" religions preach that one is saved before he comes to Christ and after coming to Christ you are always saved and lack the ability to obey Christ law whole heartedly. So now the world sees NO DIFFERENCE between themselves and the church. These groups have now realized that their teachings are not producing faithful people both in doctrine and life. Outside critics araise and present scriptures that conflict with the fruitless lives of these Believers. An answer is need to combat these accusations and still hold on to a straw foundation of faith.

    The answer from this movement: "There is no way a TRUE believer will ever leave God. So, that means those that leave God were NEVER saved in the first place!"

    So now yet another "Reasonable" deduction made from a false premise.
    (it should also be noted that this line of reasoning puts more faith in the believer than in God - or predestination)

    Ezekiel 18:24 show, however, that a man is Judged by God according to how he lives in faith to him not just what he believes - And that it is possible to obey in faith - And, that a man can fall from grace when he goes back to living wordly. None of the righteous things he done before will be remembered (not that he didn't do anything righteous, but he simply fell from grace by not repenting).

    So God responded this way in the old testament and has the same response in the new testament (this refers to believers in Him not "Non-believers)

    Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

    Is it true that Jesus "Never knew" us? Yes, in the sense of Ezekiel 18. What satifaction can God have in having part of a person's life and not all of the persons life? They can be justified by their earlier obedience, but only complete obedience.

    Not all believers are saved in the end, but ONLY those who live the truth as taught be Christ till he comes back or they die!
     
  2. Dustin

    Dustin
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    1 Timothy 1:8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

    The law is good for us because it points out our sinfulness, it condemns us, and points us to it's end (it's fufillment) which is only in Christ. Unlawful use of the law is teaching that we can actually keep it unto salvation, because if we could do that, what is the need for Christ's life, death and resurrection?


    The sole purpose of the Law is to show us that we in our sinfullness cannot please God on any level. It points us to Christ, who is the only One who never had any sin, who's righteousness is ours by the gift of faith.

    I don't think I explained it that well, but I think you get the point.

    Soli Deo Gloria,
    Dustin
     
  3. BobRyan

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    Indeed the continued authorotative role of the law for unbelievers is to condemn all as "Being under sin" according to Romans "For we have ALL sinned and fallen short".

    The continued role of the Law in the life of the Christian is seen in Rom 3:31 "Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith! May it never be -- in fact we ESTABLISH The Law of God"

    And as seen in Heb 8 the law is WRITTEN on the heart under the New Covenant.

    "Fallen from grace" as we see in Galatians 5 - refers to an act of rebellion taken AFTER one comes to Christ in salvation.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  4. Dustin

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    Galatians 5 parallels the passages in Hebrews 6 which is talking about professers of Christ going back into old covenant practices. "Fallen from grace back into law, which cannot save, but only condemn."
     
  5. BobRyan

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    In Gal 3 Paul says "you were running well ... who hindered you" and HE adds "HAVING BEGUN by the Spirit are you now perfected in the flesh?"...

    Paul never doubts the conversion and salvation STARTING point of the Christians he is addressing... but then he states that some of them have "FALLEN from GRACE"...

    You have to ask yourself just how much "graceless gospel" there is for OSAS to survive in...

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  6. Dustin

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    Paul was rebuking them because they were adding fleshly works (circumcision) to faith in Christ for justification. The false teachers were saying "Paul has it wrong, you must believe and follow the law of Moses and get circumcised." That is a false gospel. It's grace through faith in Christ + nothing = salvation. The Gospel isn't Christ plus circumcision and law keeping.

    Paul doesn't rebuke even the Corinthians who were taking thier father's wives to bed as much as he does the Galatians who added to the Gospel. He even pronouces a curse 9 verses into chapter 1 on whomever may teach a different Gospel. If you don't have the right Gospel, then morality doesn't matter at all, as you trust in things that are unable to save. With the Galatians and again in Hebrews 6 it's not a moral issue, it's an issue of going back to trust in things that cannot save you.

    1 John 2:18-19 explains why they followed a false gospel, and why they went back to law keeping.

    Hence Paul telling Timothy that the law is good,if a man uses it lawfully, that is, to show sinners thier wickedness and point them to Christ.


    Soli Deo Gloria,
    Dustin
     
  7. BobRyan

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    In Corinth "he turned them over to Satan".

    In Gal he stated that these born again believers had reached the point of "falling from grace" but did not cast them out of the church as in the case of Corinth.

    Just the facts.

    But the argument that one is saved "apart from Grace" or "Fallen from Grace but STILL saved" is an argument for "graceless OSAS" - something we do not find in the Gospel. So I just have to wonder how long the man-made tradition of OSAS survives without Grace.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  8. Tazman

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    Many start off faithful, but all must still be careful as the bible warns in order to "Always" be saved.

    How can some one fully get the continued message of encouragements and warning as given in the NT if they do not believe it applies to them?

    I would then have to say that many are not receiving the full Gospel of Gods Grace.
     
  9. DQuixote

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    You started off quite well, Tazman, but after a while your post got a little garbled. For example:

    Huh? Could you give me a list of "Christian" religions that preach that? Or do you just need to untangle that sentence?

    And then there is this:

    Again, huh? Maybe you could restate that?

    Thanks!
     
  10. BobRyan

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    Excellent point Tazman... The Bible teaching on "perseverance" turns out "to be true". Well said.

    TRUE OSAS is for those who "Persevere FIRM until the end". All 3point and 5 point Calvinists (and a few of my fellow Arminian brethren) accept that point.



    Preach it!

    As Paul said in 1Cor 9 "I buffet my body and make it my slave LEST after preaching the Gospel to OTHERS I myself should be disqualified" -- after showing us that the BENEFIT of the Gospel is salvation - is eternal life Paul argues that HE himself must listen to the warnings about perseverance.

    Good points all.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  11. Tazman

    Tazman
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    Thanks for your post. I did notice some "garble" as you say, but mainly due to bad grammer and spelling on my part, but I do hope that people can still make it out. I rushed when writing it, but it came from my heart.

    But the "garble" that you are refering to is Fact! It is not garble! It's true. I read post around this board all the time of people who believed they were always saved, but only needed to come to that reality. People that teach they had NO CHOICE in giving there lives to Christ or Making Jesus Lord of their Life.

    You don't see it? It's silly.

    People are so afraid of their own definition of "Works" that they don't realize that they need to make efforts and have made efforts in coming to Christ and staying in Him. Not that all credit is not do God, but that God works with you according to your faith.

    Look at it this way: Lets say a man hires you to pull 10 sq.ft. of weeds out of is lawn every Tuesday for three weeks. This man is very wealthy and could have hired anyone he wanted but he afforded the oppertunity to you. He has other servants that do far more work that you. And at the end of your work the man paid you three years wages.

    Did you deserve those wages? DId you really earn those wages? NOT HARDLY!!

    It was GRACE. From hiring till reward. The Heresy that I'm talking about are those who remove wholhearted efforts from their faith and attribute such foolish thinking to Jesus teachings. Those who say they only had to come to a "Realization" that they were saved and so by no way, on their own part, had to do anything to come to Christ. Foolishness!!

    People don't understand the Grace they have because they DO NOT LIVE UP TO IT!

    The fact is from false primses comes erroneous doctrines.

    Work: is anything YOU DO. (but that doesn't agree with Repentance "metanoia" MIND CHANGE! Which is the First thing out of Jesus mouth when starting his ministry; REPENT FOR THE KINGDOM..... Well you know the rest. From Jesus message he expects a response! You "respond" don't you? Isn't that something you do.)

    Jesus' first call to him did not include a pray (thoug people did pray), it did not say DO NOTHING AT ALL for the Kingdom of GOD is NEAR. But some "Christians" hear it that way.

    How can you teach and live as a self proclaimed "Christian" while not repenting from beginning till end?

    Because the fact is many self proclaimers do not want to change and have no faith. But because they have no faith the best they can reason is that "well all that is REALLY needed is, belief. That's what really matters"

    But they do not see belief as Jesus does, because if they did they would believe his warnings. But since Jesus' warning do not apply to them, they do not believe him.

    I'm sorry I may have more garble above. Once I started it was hard to stop.
     
    #11 Tazman, Feb 17, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 17, 2007
  12. Tazman

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    Back to the original OP:

    People fall from grace which is true.

    you cannot fall if you were never lifted up.


    Angels fall...

    People who turn back to living wordly fall harder!

    Gal 5

    So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.
    The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.


    Christian wannabe's reject "I warn you" because it doesn't matter how they live. But they will not say that with words - but they Scream aloud with their lives. They truly conform to the pattern of the World. These warning do not apply to them, for they are above repoach.

    The world change their views and Christians follow in hot persuit.

    Why do you think there are so many different "faith" groups?

    20th century "Christians" live more to their culture than any of the earlier churches prior till the turn of 1st millennium.

    Why is are their second thoughts about abortion, Living with lovers, gay ministers and member, wealth missions, to live whole-heartedly or not, what matters and what doesn't.

    Why is it you can go to a "Christian" College and come out with a business degree and make way more money that what you truley need. I'm sure this will raise a few hairs, but it's true.

    Why do 'Leaders" in Christian circles agree with the Government on what is "Politically" correct to talk about and what is not. Jesus never got involved in politics, He got politics involved with Him.

    The fact is most of todays "christian" faiths and churches really are "positive energy" believers. Believers that seek to have heaven on earth.

    Some may have started off well and good but many won't even fall past the startling line.
     
  13. DQuixote

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    Tazman, to fall from grace is to go back to the traditions of the Jews. It has nothing to do with losing one's salvation. To depart from the grace of God meant that some believers decided that, for example, circumcision was necessary, or not eating pork was essential -- all those things that God's grace removed them from, in His act of "saving grace," saving them once and for all.

    I have never met a person who believes that they are saved but can then live anyway they want to, and I've been around in Christian circles for more years than most. Not once have I encountered a Christian in a church who believed that, and I've been a member of several churches. It is popular for those who decry OSAS to add that to their argument -- they've been doing it since I was a kid -- but it is a faulty argument. No one I know among the OSAS group believes that, and I know and have known countless OSASers. I think one person hears some other person say that and then repeats it without checking the source. That's sad.:tear:
     
  14. BobRyan

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    good point Tazman

    Fallen angels do not "then FALL" again they are ALREADY fallen.


    Some are lost and have outside of grace - not under grace but also not FALLEN from grace for they never had it.

    Others are lost and ARE fallen from grace for having HAD it - having BEEN saved - they fell.

    In Gal 3 Paul said "YOU WERE DOING WELL" this is not a statment to the lost about being in a BETTER LOST STATE before than their current lost state in Gal 5. Rather the Gal 3 statement SHOWS they were saved and Gal 5 shows that the saved - FELL from grace.

    In Matt 18 Christ explains the problem as "Forgiveness revoked".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #14 BobRyan, Feb 17, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 17, 2007
  15. Tazman

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    DQ -

    Don't take this the wrong way, but you really need to get out more or ask these OSASers more of the right kind of questions.

    As it still stand, you are one who believe once saved there is nothing you can do to fall from salvation.

    If you believe this way, you will have to twist and turn through every scripture that speak of condemnation of a unrepentant "believer".

    Here's a question: Do you believe that Jesus and the Apostles address issues of People who believed at one time and turned back from God through the unrepentant life?

    Yes or No please.

    Example: Since it's clear in scripture, I can simply answer YES!

    Can you Do the same?
     

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