Thief On The Cross, Thou Shalt Be With Me [Jesus] In Paradise...

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  1. One Baptism

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    Thief On The Cross, Thou Shalt Be With Me [Jesus] In Paradise... when???

    Please prayerfully read the texts and immediate local context of Luke 23:32-56; Matthew 27:38-66; Mark 15:15-47; John 20:1-31.

    Let us see what we shall gain from these texts and see if there cannot be atonement upon them:

    [1] The Greek, The English and the placement of a single punctuation, a “comma”:

    The King James, as other translations, basically share this format in the English,

    “And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.” Luke 23:43

    It is generally because of where the comma is placed [which normally would not mean so much if misplaced however] in this sentence in the English, alters the immediate context, other passages, and even a whole doctrine which is taught from Genesis to Revelation on matters of death & resurrection.

    The Greek, reads [without punctuation]:

    As would be found in an ancient document:

    καιειπεναυτωοιησουςαμηνλεγωσοισημερονμετεμουεσηεντωπαραδεισω - Luke 23:43

    As commonly understood:

    και ειπεν αυτω ο ιησους αμην λεγω σοι σημερον μετ εμου εση εν τω παραδεισω - Luke 23:43

    As we may see, the comma, is merely an addition of men, to try and help the reader understand the structure of any given sentence. Yet, even some helps, can sometimes be flawed. The placement of a comma can change the meaning entirely, for instance, a few common ones found online:

    "Let's eat, Grandma!" vs.
    "Let's eat Grandma!"

    "A woman, without her, man is nothing." vs
    "A woman without her man, is nothing." ​

    etc.

    Therefore, notice what happens when the comma is removed, or changed, or added and make every Caps or lowercase:

    No Punctuation:

    [1A] AND JESUS SAID UNTO HIM VERILY I SAY UNTO THEE TO DAY SHALT THOU BE WITH ME IN PARADISE - Luke 23:43

    [1B] and jesus said unto him verily i say unto thee to day shalt thou be with me in paradise - Luke 23:43

    KJB Punctuation:

    [2A] AND JESUS SAID UNTO HIM, VERILY I SAY UNTO THEE, TO DAY SHALT THOU BE WITH ME IN PARADISE. - Luke 23:43

    [2B] and jesus said unto him, verily i say unto thee, to day shalt thou be with me in paradise. - Luke 23:43

    Added Punctuation to KJB:

    [3A] AND JESUS SAID UNTO HIM, VERILY I SAY UNTO THEE, TO DAY, SHALT THOU BE WITH ME IN PARADISE. - Luke 23:43

    [3B] and jesus said unto him, verily i say unto thee, to day, shalt thou be with me in paradise. - Luke 23:43

    Moved Punctuation to KJB:

    [4A] AND JESUS SAID UNTO HIM, VERILY I SAY UNTO THEE TO DAY, SHALT THOU BE WITH ME IN PARADISE. - Luke 23:43

    [4B] and jesus said unto him, verily i say unto thee to day, shalt thou be with me in paradise. - Luke 23:43
     
    #1 One Baptism, Apr 26, 2015
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  2. One Baptism

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    Well, where should the comma, if any, go?

    Some cite the following Scriptures [below] and claim the pattern therein, is in favor of the comma, being before the "to day", only, like as read in the KJB:

    And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. - Luke 23:43

    Notice:

    And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man. - John 1:51

    Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. - John 3:3

    Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. - John 3:5

    Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. - John 3:11

    Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. - John 5:19

    Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. - John 5:24

    Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. - John 5:25

    Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled. - John 6:26

    Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. - John 6:32

    Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. - John 6:47

    Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. - John 6:53

    Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. - John 8:34

    Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. - John 8:51

    Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. - John 8:58

    Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. - John 10:1

    Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. - John 10:7

    Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. - John 12:24

    Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him. - John 13:16

    Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me. - John 13:20

    When Jesus had thus said, he was troubled in spirit, and testified, and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me. - John 13:21

    Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice. - John 13:38

    Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. - John 14:12

    Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy. - John 16:20

    And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give [it] you. - John 16:23

    Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry [thee] whither thou wouldest not. - John 21:18

    For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. - Matthew 5:18

    Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing. - Matthew 5:26

    Therefore when thou doest [thine] alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. - Matthew 6:2

    And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites [are]: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. - Matthew 6:5

    Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. - Matthew 6:16

    When Jesus heard [it], he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. - Matthew 8:10

    Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city. - Matthew 10:15

    But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. - Matthew 10:2

    And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold [water] only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward. - Matthew 10:42

    For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous [men] have desired to see [those things] which ye see, and have not seen [them]; and to hear [those things] which ye hear, and have not heard [them]. - Matthew 13:17

    The bolded "Black" portion is a very good observation of the placement of the comma's, but it is also begging the question a little bit, by attempting to prove from further man-added punctuation, not found in the Greek, the point of the comma at Luke 23:43. Those which normally cite these passages to prove their apriori generally do not take into consideration the fact that it does not prove what they think it does so easily, but rather it proves more than they would want. Please go back and look again at the next comma to follow in the sentences, always after a section which has multiple parts. See the highlighted "red" comma's and/or semi-colon's.

    Thus Luke 23:43 could and should very well look like the following, simply based upon that previous pattern, thus see Added Punctuation to KJB example (above):

    And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise. - Luke 23:43

    The word "to day" is a section of the sentence unto itself following "Verily I say unto thee," like the other pieces of sentence in the other examples.

    Scripture say, that the "words" would be "preserved" forever:

    The words of the LORD [are] pure words: [as] silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. - Psalm 12:6

    Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever. - Psalm 12:7​

    Notice, it has nothing to say of punctuation. For that, we need to consult the Scriptures, in their context and line upon line, comparing each part with another in their wholeness, not arbitrarily assign a place to where we think something ought to go.
     
    #2 One Baptism, Apr 26, 2015
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  3. One Baptism

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    In context, the comma should actually be after the word “To day”, in either:

    Best:

    And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise. - Luke 23:43

    or alternatively [yet not best]:

    And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise. - Luke 23:43

    The KJB in Luke 23:43, needs to come into harmony with all of the Scripture.

    The latter should be our answer, since according to scripture itself, “...the scripture cannot be broken.” [John 10:35]

    Additionally, never should any person seek to hang any doctrine upon the case of a punctuation mark, or even a single text for that matter, for Scripture is always to be understood in such a manner:

    “For precept [must be] upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, [and] there a little:” - Isaiah 28:10

    Let us then look more carefully, and see why the Thief could/did not have gone to "paradise" that day, and neither could/did Jesus.
     
  4. One Baptism

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    [2] The context of the other Gospel of John reveals that Jesus did not “ascend” to “Paradise” the day of His death at all, for it is written, that after His resurrection on "the first [day] of the week" [aka 'Sunday'], He said:

    “Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.” John 20:17

    This text in context just eliminated any possibility for the comma to be only placed before the word “To day”.

    What Jesus was saying to the thief upon the cross, is that though Jesus did not look like a King with a Kingdom, He indeed was, and that if only the thief would believe His words “thou shalt be with me in Paradise”, he would be resurrected in the First Great Resurrection “at the last day” [John 6:39,40,44,54, 11:24], even “at that day” [2 Timothy 4:8].

    Jesus, in opposition to what looked like circumstances unto an eternal end, yet He says to the thief, “Verily, verily I say unto thee, to day,...”, as in right now, this moment, 'I speak to you the truth'.

    It is like unto what we find here, “For he [is] our God; and we [are] the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice,” [Psalms 95:7; see also Hebrews 3:7,15, 4:7], for Jesus is saying, 'Believe my words to day...' and 'have faith in my word this moment' and 'trust me now', even as it is written,

    “(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now [is] the accepted time; behold, now [is] the day of salvation.)” - 2 Corinthians 6:2

    Yet let us consider even more reasons.
     
  5. One Baptism

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    [3] Another point to consider, is that Luke is the only one which records these words “And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise.” Luke 23:43 [KJV], and therefore, before any conclude to utilize the exact punctuation of the KJB, or this text, in favor of an erroneous theology, when it comes to the death and resurrection of persons and the timing thereof, ought to consider more context on the whole.

    Especially since Luke says,

    “Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,” - Luke 1:1

    “Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;” - Luke 1:2

    “It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,” - Luke 1:3

    “That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.” - Luke 1:4

    Therefore let us be circumspect and very careful, not to fall into the trap of those which “wrest” [2 Peter 3:16] the scriptures, or as those which “corrupt the Word of God” [2 Corinthians 2:17] as do others.

    It would therefore, be quite dangerous to simply take a single text and claim it proves any doctrine, for a board with one nail in it, will spin all around, but a board with several nails through will be stable.

    Therefore, we need to consider this text within the context which surrounds it and those events, otherwise we would be as satan which only quotes certain portions of any text or context [Matthew 4:6], stopping just short of God's glory - which would be sin [Romans 3:23; 1 John 3:4].
     
  6. One Baptism

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    [4] According to the various man-made traditions and creeds of Roman Catholicism and others [usually 'Orthodoxy'] [in themselves UnScriptural], Christ Jesus did not go to “Paradise” that day either, but rather they say that he [Christ, in a Platonic Dualism] “descended into hell” [their Def. "hell", which is completely unscriptural, but that is for another time and topic] and it was not until the “third day” [Matthew 12:40 He said, “three days and three nights”, but on Two occasions, Matthew 27:63; Mark 8:31 He said, “after three days.” and He referred to the same event 5 times in Matthew 26:61, 27:40; Mark 15:29; John 2:19-20 as “in three days”, and on Twelve occasions it is said, “the third day.” Matthew 16:21, 17:23, 20:19; Mark 9:31, 10:34; Luke 9:22, 13:32, 18:33, 24:7,46; Acts 10:40; 1 Corinthians 15:4.] that he arose, and finally “ascended” into heaven.

    This creates a very serious theological conundrum and contradiction for any which believe this "tradition", if they also think that Luke 23:43 says Christ Jesus entered “Paradise” that same day he died. Others attempt to redefine “Paradise” into a type of 'limbo', but even in this, it still contradicts.

    We may see this from several Roman Catholic sources, such as:

    Thomas Aquinas “Summa Theologica”, Third Part, Question 52; Article 4, Reply To Objection 1 [and throughout, having both the Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur]:

    “Reply to Objection 1. When Christ descended into hell He delivered the saints who were there, not by leading them out at once from the confines of hell, but by enlightening them with the light of glory in hell itself. Nevertheless it was fitting that His soul should abide in hell as long as His body remained in the tomb.” - http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4052.htm#article4

    or we may see it from the “Creed of Aquiliea”":

    Descendit ad inferna; tertia die resurrexit a mortuis (He descended to hell; on the third day he rose again from the dead); Ascendit in cœlos; sedet ad dexteram Patris; (He ascended to the heavens; he sits at the right hand of the Father)”- http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/2711.htm

    or considering the “Apostles Creed”, it clearly states that Jesus was not “caught up to Heaven” until after the “third day”; “T” Apostles Creed :

    “...(5) He descended into hell; the third day He rose again from the dead; (6) He ascended into Heaven, sitteth at the right hand of God the Father Almighty; ...” - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01629a.htm

    or considering the “Nicene Creed”, it clearly says of Jesus that he:

    “...suffered and was buried; and the third day rose again according to the Scriptures. And ascended into heaven...” - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11049a.htm

    or considering the “Athanasian Creed”, it clearly says of Jesus:

    “...Who suffered for our salvation, descended into Hell, rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into Heaven...” - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02033b.htm
     
  7. One Baptism

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    [5] “Paradise” is actually the “Garden of God” in “the city” “of God”, wherein is “the Throne of God” in the “third Heaven”, where God the Father rules, from where Jesus came from and from which Lucifer was cast out of, by scripture:

    Luke 23:43 Greek και ειπεν αυτω ο ιησους αμην λεγω σοι σημερον μετ εμου εση εν τω παραδεισω

    And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. Luke 23:43

    It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 Corinthians 12:1

    2 Corinthians 12:2 Greek οιδα ανθρωπον εν χριστω προ ετων δεκατεσσαρων ειτε εν σωματι ουκ οιδα ειτε εκτος του σωματος ουκ οιδα ο θεος οιδεν αρπαγεντα τον τοιουτον εως τριτου ουρανου

    I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 2 Corinthians 12:2

    And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) 2 Corinthians 12:3

    2 Corinthians 12:4 Greek οτι ηρπαγη εις τον παραδεισον και ηκουσεν αρρητα ρηματα α ουκ εξον ανθρωπω λαλησαι

    How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 2 Corinthians 12:4

    Revelation 2:7 Greek ο εχων ους ακουσατω τι το πνευμα λεγει ταις εκκλησιαις τω νικωντι δωσω αυτω φαγειν εκ του ξυλου της ζωης ο εστιν εν μεσω του παραδεισου του θεου

    He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. Revelation 2:7

    In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, [was there] the tree of life, which bare twelve [manner of] fruits, [and] yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree [were] for the healing of the nations. Revelation 22:2

    Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. Revelation 22:14

    Ezekiel 28:13 LXX ἐν τῇ τρυφῇ τοῦ παραδείσου τοῦ θεοῦ ἐγενήθης· πᾶν λίθον χρηστὸν ἐνδέδεσαι, σάρδιον καὶ τοπάζιον καὶ σμάραγδον καὶ ἄνθρακα καὶ σάπφειρον καὶ ἴασπιν καὶ ἀργύριον καὶ χρυσίον καὶ λιγύριον καὶ ἀχάτην καὶ ἀμέθυστον καὶ χρυσόλιθον καὶ βηρύλλιον καὶ ὀνύχιον, καὶ χρυσίου ἐνέπλησας τοὺς θησαυρούς σου καὶ τὰς ἀποθήκας σου ἐν σοὶ ἀφ᾿ ἧς ἡμέρας ἐκτίσθης σύ.

    Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone [was] thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Ezekiel 28:13

    Ezekiel 31:9 LXX διὰ τὸ πλῆθος τῶν κλάδων αὐτοῦ, καὶ ἐζήλωσεν αὐτὸν τὰ ξύλα τοῦ παραδείσου τῆς τρυφῆς τοῦ θεοῦ.

    I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of Eden, that were in the garden of God, envied him. Ezekiel 31:9

    Isaiah 51:3 LXX καὶ σὲ νῦν παρακαλέσω, Σιων, καὶ παρεκάλεσα πάντα τὰ ἔρημα αὐτῆς καὶ θήσω τὰ ἔρημα αὐτῆς ὡς παράδεισον κυρίου· εὐφροσύνην καὶ ἀγαλλίαμα εὑρήσουσιν ἐν αὐτῇ, ἐξομολόγησιν καὶ φωνὴν αἰνέσεως.

    For the LORD shall comfort Zion: he will comfort all her waste places; and he will make her wilderness like Eden, and her desert like the garden of the LORD; joy and gladness shall be found therein, thanksgiving, and the voice of melody. Isaiah 51:3

    Jesus did not enter into “Paradise” until after He was resurrected and arose from death “the third day” according to the scriptures, this being His first ascension ["Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God." - John 20:17] back into Heaven, the other at the Mount of Olives [Acts 1:9; Revelation 12:5], after 40 days [Acts 1:3, 2:33; Psalms 133:1-3; Revelation 5:6], 10 days before Pentecost, the 50th Day [Leviticus 23:16] in exact fulfillment of the Biblical Types and Prophecy [Psalms 24] given in the OT [unto Moses and Aaron].
     
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    [6] Jesus was dead and in the Tomb, the grave/pit [Job 11:8, 17:13; Psalms 16:10, 86:13, 139:8; Proverbs 5:5, 7:27; Isaiah 14:15; Ezekiel 31:16; Acts 2:27,31], resting in the sleep of death upon the 7th Day, the Sabbath of the Lord thy God, for even in death He is perfect, for he not going anywhere, as it is written, “...he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb.” [Job 21:32], until after His resurrection, for He must of necessity fulfill the scriptures:

    I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars [was] about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God. - Jonah 2:6

    Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again. Matthew 27:63

    He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. Matthew 28:6

    Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. John 10:17

    I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. Revelation 1:18

    And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive; Revelation 2:8
     
    #8 One Baptism, Apr 26, 2015
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  9. percho

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    I voted 3.

    1. Christ: Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

    2. Found in at least 4 verses which I believe will take place at the same time: Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. V5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.V6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    3. The final: Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


    Side question, If I am correct, which resurrection will the thief on the cross be a part of? Considering:

    Luke 23:42,43 and he said to Jesus, 'Remember me, lord, when thou mayest come in thy reign;' and Jesus said to him, 'Verily I say to thee To-day, with me thou shalt be in the paradise.'
    Rev 2:7 He who is having an ear -- let him hear what the Spirit saith to the assemblies: To him who is overcoming -- I will give to him to eat of the tree of life that is in the midst of the paradise of God.
    Rev 22:2,14 in the midst of its broad place, and of the river on this side and on that, is a tree of life, yielding twelve fruits, in each several month rendering its fruits, and the leaves of the tree are for the service of the nations; 'Happy are those doing His commands that the authority shall be theirs unto the tree of the life, and by the gates they may enter into the city;
     
  10. One Baptism

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    [7] Christ Jesus did not lead “captivity captive” [the “firstfruits” 1 Corinthians 15:20,23, the “wavesheaf” Leviticus 23:10-12; see Matthew 27:52-53] until His own Resurrection, “the third day” [Luke 24:21] and in His ascension [Psalms 24],

    “Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.” Ephesians 4:8

    [Special Resurrection of some specific martyrs at Jesus own Resurrection, see also Psalms 68:18; Isaiah 26:19; Matthew 27:52,53]

    And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; - Matthew 27:51

    And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, - Matthew 27:52

    And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. - Matthew 27:53

    Consider:

    But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 1 Corinthians 15:20

    But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 1 Corinthians 15:23

    The English word “coming” in the Greek is “parousia” “παρουσία” and means “presence, the advent, the coming, the arrival, the future visible return of Jesus from Heaven to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the Kingdom of God” [Strong's Concordance] [See Matthew 24:37 and compare to Luke 17:26,30].

    For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1 Thessalonians 4:16

    Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17

    Notice, not individually as any die, but all “together” being alive and others with them made alive in a resurrection [Biblical exceptions, Enoch, Elijah, Moses, special group of “saints” around Jerusalem at Jesus own resurrection, each playing a specific part in typology, there are no other Biblical exceptions].

    The same word can be viewed in many other passages:

    [Matthew 24:3,27,37,39; 1 Corinthians 16:17; 2 Corinthians 7:6-7, 10:10; Philippians 1:26, 2:12; 1 Thessalonians 2:19, 3:13, 4:15, 5:23; 2 Thessalonians 2:1,8,9; James 5:7-8; 2 Peter 1:16, 3:4,12; 1 John 2:28].

    There are also many other words that also describe Jesus' visible, physical, audible, tumultuous, glorious, triumphant and literal return at His appointed time:

    “to come and/or arrive” “erchomai” “ἔρχομαι” [Matthew 24:30, 26:64; John 14:3; 1 Corinthians 11:26; Revelation. 1:7],

    “to appear visibly” “optanomai” “ὀπτάνομαι” [Hebrews 9:28],

    “to return” “analyō” “ἀναλύω” [Luke 12:36],

    “to reveal” “apokalypsis” “ἀποκάλυψις” [2 Thessalonians 1:7; 1 Peter 1:7; Luke 17:29-30],

    “to manifest” “epiphaneia” “ἐπιφάνεια” [1 Timothy 6:14; 2 Timothy 4:8; Titus 2:13],

    “make manifest” “phaneroō” “φανερόω” [1 Peter 5:4],

    “come” “hēkō” “ἥκω” [Revelation 2:25],

    “to return” “hypostrephō” “ὑποστρέφω” [Luke 19:12].​

    Therefore, since Jesus is fulfilling the types in their order, Jesus was not to be the Firstfruits until His resurrection from the dead in/on the 16th Of Nisan/Aviv {the "first [day] of the week", which was "...the Third day since these things were done" Luke 24:21}, which is two days later from the Passover, the 14th of Nisan/Aviv, as it is given in Scripture:

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2213507&postcount=23

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2213509&postcount=24
     
    #10 One Baptism, Apr 26, 2015
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  11. One Baptism

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    [8] Jesus is specific about how anyone* which dies, is to enter into Heaven, “And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.” [John 14:3], and that word “come” is the Greek “erchomai” “ἔρχομαι”.

    And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. - Matthew 24:30

    Death is an enemy, not a friend [1 Corinthians 15:26], for it has a sting, which will one day be no more, and it was not until after the Resurrection of Christ Jesus, that He “...hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.” [2 Timothy 1:10].

    *there are Biblical exceptions, Enoch [translated], Elijah [translated], Moses [resurrected and gathered] and a special group raised in Jesus' own resurrection, taken with Him.
     
    #11 One Baptism, Apr 26, 2015
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  12. One Baptism

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    [9] The thief specifically stated this: "And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom." Luke 23:42, which is the context of Luke 23:43, and we know that Jesus has not yet received that Kingdom, for He does not yet sit upon the Throne of Glory, but now sits upon the Throne of Grace [Hebrews 4:16]:

    And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28

    When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: Matthew 25:31

    Jesus went to go receive the Kingdom, and went into that Far Country, 3rd Heaven ["They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, [even] the LORD, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land. - Isaiah 13:5"]. He is not yet married unto it, for that final number has not yet come in.

    He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. Luke 19:12

    I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. Daniel 7:13

    And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. Daniel 7:14

    And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. Revelation 21:2

    And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. Revelation 22:17

    The number of His Kingdom is not made up yet, but soon it will be.

    See also: Isaiah 61:10, 62:5; Matthew 21:33, 25:14; Mark 12:1; Luke 20:9

    Especially Read Matthew 25 and the Ten Virgins.
     
  13. One Baptism

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    The Thief will be raised in the First Great Resurrection, which comes at the beginning of the final 1,000 years [the beginning of "the Day of the LORD", the 7th Day "with" the LORD, 2 Peter 3:8].

    There are two main Great Resurrections, capping the ends of the Day of the LORD, the final 1,000 years, and a special one just before the First Great.

    And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. - John 5:29

    [Special Resurrection; before Jesus comes, they get to See Him Coming] Some righteous, some wicked, special cases as specifically described in Scripture - Daniel 12:2,12; Matthew 26:64; Mark 14:62; Revelation 1:7, 14:13, &c;

    [First Great Resurrection, at Jesus presence above the earth at the beginning of the final 1,000 years] Only Righteous - 1 Samuel 2:6; Job 14:12-14, 19:26; Hosea 13:14; Matthew 22:31; Mark 12:18,23,25; Luke 14:14, 20:35,36; John 5:29a, 6:25,28,29,39,40,44,54, 11:24,25; Acts 4:2, 17:31,32, 23:6, 24:15a,21; Romans 6:5,8, 8:11; 1 Corinthians 15:12,13,16,20,21,23,29,32,35,42,43,52-55; Philippians 3:10,11; Colossians 3:3; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Timothy 2:18, 4:1; Hebrews 6:2, 11:35; Revelation 20:5b,6; -- All the Holy "Clouds" of Angels, the "reapers", with Him -- Psalms 68:17, 104:3; Isaiah 66:15; Matthew 13:39,49, 16:27, 24:30, 25:31,51, 26:64; Mark 8:38, 13:27; Luke 9:26, 21:27; Acts 1:9-11; 1 Thessalonians 3:13, 4:16-17; Hebrews 1:7; Revelation 1:7, 12:7;

    [Second Great Resurrection, at Jesus presence at the end of the final 1,000 years] Only Wicked - John 5:29b; Acts 17:31, 24:15b; Revelation 20:5a;

    On a side note on Resurrection:

    There are many other verses to consider on resurrection in general, such as Matthew 11:5; Luke 7:22, &c.

    Then there are other verses, like these which are related, such as Matthew 8:22; Luke 9:60, &c.

    Elijah raises the Widow of Zarephath's Son - 1 Kings 17:17-24;

    Elijah raises the son of the Shunamite Woman - 2 Kings 4:18-37;

    A man and Elisha's Bones - 2 Kings 13:20-21;

    The Valley of Bones, the Resurrected Army - Ezekiel 37:1-14;

    Jesus raises the Widow of Nain's Son - Luke 7:11-17;

    Jesus raises Jairus's Daughter - Matthew 9:18,19,23-26; Mark 5:22-24,35-43; Luke 8:41-42,49-56;

    Jesus raises Lazarus - John 11:1-47;

    Peter raises Tabitha/Dorcas - Acts 9:36-42;

    Paul raises Eutychus - Acts 20:9-12;

    *Some think that Paul himself was also raised, after his stoning, but the context shows that Paul was simply gravely injured in that instance, and not dead. Please ask for the scripture on this.

    The Son of God/Jesus/Michael [Uncreated Creator; I AM, Deity, YHVH Emmanuel, etc] raises Moses - Matthew 17:1-12; Mark 9:1-13; Luke 9:27-36; 2 Peter 1:16; Romans 5:14; Jude 1:9;

    Select Group, First Fruits Resurrection, around the locality of Jerusalem at the time of Jesus own - Psalms 68:18; Isaiah 26:19; Matthew 27:52,53; Ephesians 4:8;

    Jesus' own Resurrection - Matthew 28:1-20; Mark 16:1-20; Luke 24:1-53; John 20:1-31; 1 Corinthians 15:20,23, &c;​
     
    #13 One Baptism, Apr 26, 2015
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  14. One Baptism

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    Some may think I missed a 'resurrection', by excluding the "two witnesses" of Revelation 11, but this is not the case, since those are not dealing with persons as are the previous texts. These "two witnesses" of Revelation 11, &c, are "the Law/word" and "the "Testimony/prophets", which during the dark ages [1,260 years, 538 AD to 1798 AD] prophesied in sackcloth, and in 1793-1797 AD [3 1/2 years], in the reign of terror in France were legally abolished by legislation, but were brought back afters and exalted in Bible publishing houses, etc.

    Two or Three Witnesses required:

    To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. Isaiah 8:20

    The Law [or the Commandments of God, and all that go with them] and the Testimony [which is the Spirit of the Prophets/prophecy] are two such witnesses:

    And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all [of] gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which [are] upon the top thereof: - Zechariah 4:2

    And two olive trees by it, one upon the right [side] of the bowl, and the other upon the left [side] thereof. - Zechariah 4:3

    So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What [are] these, my lord? - Zechariah 4:4

    Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord. - Zechariah 4:5

    Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This [is] the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts. - Zechariah 4:6

    See:

    Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you: 1 Corinthians 1:6

    So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: 1 Corinthians 1:7

    Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 1:8

    Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant. 1 Corinthians 12:1

    Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:4

    To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 1 Corinthians 12:9

    To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 1 Corinthians 12:10

    And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. 1 Corinthians 12:28

    This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. 2 Corinthians 13:1

    He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Hebrews 10:28

    Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. Revelation 1:2

    Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. Revelation 1:3

    John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; Revelation 1:4

    And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, Revelation 1:5

    And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. Revelation 19:10

    ["For he established a testimony in Jacob, and appointed a law in Israel, which he commanded our fathers, that they should make them known to their children:" Psalms 78:5;

    "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them." Isaiah 8:20;

    "Yet the LORD testified against Israel, and against Judah, by all the prophets, [and by] all the seers, saying, Turn ye from your evil ways, and keep my commandments [and] my statutes, according to all the law which I commanded your fathers, and which I sent to you by my servants the prophets." 2 Kings 17:13;

    "Nevertheless they were disobedient, and rebelled against thee, and cast thy law behind their backs, and slew thy prophets which testified against them to turn them to thee, and they wrought great provocations." Nehemiah 9:26;​

    also known as "the law and the prophets" [Matthew 5:17, 7:12, 11:13, 22:40; Luke 16:16, 24:44; John 1:45; Acts 13:15, 24:14, 28:23; Romans 3:21, etc; and see "the law [is] no [more]; her prophets also find no vision from the LORD." Lamentations 2:9;p, see also Proverbs 29:18; Ezekiel 7:26; Zephaniah 3:4; Zechariah 7:12, etc.]​

    I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. Revelation 1:9

    And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: Revelation 6:9

    And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. Revelation 11:3

    These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. Revelation 11:4

    And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. Revelation 11:5

    And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Revelation 12:17

    At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death. Deuteronomy 13:6

    One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established. Deuteronomy 19:15

    But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. Matthew 18:16

    Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; Romans 12:6

    Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses. 1 Timothy 5:19

    In fact, God the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit also work in this way, they being The 3 Eternal Witnesses [a Jehovah's Witness cannot refute this]:

    It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. John 8:17

    Jesus declares it so:

    If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true. John 5:31

    The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true. John 8:13

    Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, [yet] my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go. John 8:14

    I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me. John 8:18

    We should all recognize that our answers should come from a “Thus saith the LORD [YHVH]...” [Ezekiel 34:11,17; Haggai 1:7, etc], for we both desire to know the Truth as “...it is written...” [Matthew 4:4, etc] for “...the scripture cannot be broken” [John 10:35], and “The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.” [Psalms 12:6].

    There are three persons, all able to Witness and Testify of the other in perfection, in Eternity.

    For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1 John 5:7

    And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. 1 John 5:8

    [to be thus “one” is to be in complete, atonement, and agreement]

    [evidence of these texts: [Link] ]
     
  15. Darrell C

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    So the Law and the Prophets...lie dead in the street for three days?


    God bless
     
  16. Darrell C

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    Are not the Two Olive Trees of Zechariah a reference to two men?


    God bless.
     
  17. Yeshua1

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    Are not the two witnesses in revelation real people?
     
  18. BobRyan

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    all true -

    And so with no comma it is

    and Jesus said unto him verily i say unto thee to day shalt thou be with me in paradise. - Luke 23:43

    The question/request to Jesus is "remember me WHEN you come into your kingdom"

    And the answer "verily I say unto thee today you SHALL be with Me in Paradise".

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #18 BobRyan, Apr 28, 2015
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  19. BobRyan

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    Near the end of that 1260 years of dark ages - the French ban the Bible - and for 3.5 years try going it alone.

    The Bible - the LAW and the Prophets

    As God said "MY WORD".

    Or possibly - the OT and the NT. (I prefer this one).

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  20. Darrell C

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    Yes, just as the Two Olive Trees in Zechariah are.


    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Zechariah+4:11-14&version=KJV


    I take the view that the two anointed ones are the High Priest (Joshua) and King (Zerubbabel, who, though not a king, is within the lineage in my understanding, and I would suggest pictures Christ, also in the lineage but officially, from a temporal perspective, also not considered a king, though we know the anointing is of God which cannot be disputed):

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Haggai+2:3-5&version=KJV

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Zechariah+4:6-7&version=KJV


    The irony I see are two men who know full well the disrepair of the Temple in both Zechariah as well as Revelation.

    Both Offices are brought together in Christ, Who is our King and our Great High Priest. The Two Witnesses stand as representatives of those Offices even as the anointed of God, the Two Olive Trees of that Prophecy...did.

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+11:3-4&version=KJV

    Lastly I would say that many suggestions have been offered as to what the two olive trees are. We can say they are identical in both Testaments or we would have more than two, lol. This would rule out they represent the Two Testaments for the obvious reason there was no New Testament in Zechariah's day. Nor would we entertain the notion that either have or could be said to have diefd and then resurrected and raptured. And we see in Revelation 11 that it demands literal men because only men could satisfy the description of their ministry, death, resurrection, and rapture.

    Sorry for not posting the Scripture. Not many will bother to look them up.


    God bless.
     

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