Thief on the cross

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by webdog, Sep 29, 2006.

  1. webdog

    webdog
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    Is he in Heaven now, and if so, will he be excluded from the Kingdom?

    For that matter, are those Christians who died carnally with the Lord now...only to be banished from the Kingdom in the future?
     
  2. J. Jump

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    Yes as far as I can tell Scripturally. Why would he be? Jesus told him that he was going to be in paradise (and paradise spoken of I don't believe is some or was some holding tank - Contextually Jesus was speaking of the kingdom).

    Great question. Obviously no one's body is with the Lord so the question has to relate to the soul and the spirit. I don't think we have enough Scirptural information to be dogmatic on what happens to the soul at death whether the soul of a faithful or unfaithful believer. It seems that the spirit of all saved individuals go to be with the Lord upon death.

    It will be interesting to see what others have to say. What are your thoughts?
     
  3. webdog

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    Why would the thief on the cross (I will refer to him as TOTC going forward) be allowed to reign in the Kingdom? What works did he commit to merit this? He only exhibited faith.
     
  4. J. Jump

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    I would say taking a stand for Christ against the other thief would be a pretty good work. He stood up and said they were getting what they deserved, but Christ was suffering as an innocent person.

    Outside of that I'm not sure if there is anything, mainly because there was no opportunity for any other works other than that. He was as faithful and obedient and overcoming as possible in his circumstances woulnd't you say?
     
  5. webdog

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    So, then, either one work is enough for entrance into the kingdom for a true believer...or making good on 100% of your opportunities? Has to be one or the other if you believe TOTC will be there. If it's the latter, the Kingdom will consist of Christ only!
     
    #5 webdog, Sep 29, 2006
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  6. webdog

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    So for those less than faithful believers who were saved 1900 years ago...they have been with the Lord for that period of time, but then in the future God will abandon them to hell for a thousand years, and you claim this to be mercy? That's one wierd justice system. Imagine a thief stealing a car not only getting off, but given a huge house to live in, driving the nicest car and rewarded a life that's very well off...only to serve his prison sentence later in life! Strange!
     
    #6 webdog, Sep 29, 2006
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  7. J. Jump

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    Neither. Kingdom entrance is not based on a "number" of works that you do, but based on whether or not you are obedient, faithful and overcoming. If you are those three things with works that will stand as gold, silver and precious stones will eminate out of your members, because that means that you are walking in the Spirit.

    Now if you are being disobedient, unfaithful and non-overcoming works are still going to eminate out of your members, but they will be wood, hay and stubble.

    It's not the amount, it's whether you are being obedient, faithful and overcoming.

    Hope that clarifies. If not ask again.
     
  8. webdog

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    In the case of the TOTC, he only had faith. His rebuking of the other thief came before his statement for Christ to remember him.
     
  9. J. Jump

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    Well that is speculating as to what is going on right now. How do you know that they are up there kickin' it as if they were obedient. Have you been up there? Is there Scripture that speaks to what is going on up there?

    I have no idea what is going on up there and what has gone on up there for 1900 years.

    However I do know what the Bible says and the Bible says unless you are a faithful, obedient, overcoming believer you will NOT enter the kingdom and you will NOT rule and reign with Christ.

    Outside of that we start to get into speculation.

    Again I don't think it is our job to figure things out that are not revealed to us. Let's just deal in the revealed and leave the rest up to God.

    But here is what I would say . . . who am I to tell God ANYTHING even if they were up there kickin' it in a mansion and partying for 1900 years just to be kicked out of the kingdom. I am no one. If that is the way God chose to do things then I will trust that it is just!

    Again being disciplined for 1,000 years and then having your tears wiped away before stepping into eternity is far more merciful than being kicked out forever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever in my book.

    But the bigger question is why even be concerned with it, because we are told that we don't have to be kicked out, but that we can have an abundant entrance (I Peter I believe - if not II Peter) and we can abundantly enter the kingdom by being faithful, obedient, overcoming believers until He comes to get us or until He takes us out of here!

    Why concentrate on the negative when you can live like we are supposed to and dwell on Christ and His coming kingdom! If we keep our eyes on Him we won't have to deal with the other. But it is a disservice to tell all Christians that they are going to be okay even if they are walking by the flesh and not by the Spirit!
     
  10. J. Jump

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    Well it's a pretty big leap as far as I can tell to say that he had to ask the quesiton or he wouldn't have been accepted.

    So does that mean we all have to ask Christ if we can go into His kingdom if we want to be there?
     
  11. hawg_427

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    Works?????

    Correct me if I'm wrong but we dont get heaven on our works, it is FAITH that gets us there.
     
  12. webdog

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    You are correct. This is pertaining to the Millenial Exlusion threads that have been the hot topic lately.
     
  13. webdog

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    Why is it a leap? Did Jesus heal every person He came into contact with...or those who asked? Salvation isn't randomly given away.

    The TOTC didn't ask to be included in the MK, he asked for Christ to remember him (expression of faith).
     
  14. webdog

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    I recall that Paul stated to be absent from the body meant being present with the Lord. He didn't imply an agonizing presence with the Lord.
     
  15. mountainrun

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    2 Corinthians 12:1-4 reveals that Paradise is now in heaven, along with the thief {actually, the Bible just refers to them as criminals}.

    2Co 12:2 I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago (whether in the body, I know not; or whether out of the body, I know not; God knoweth), such a one caught up even to the third heaven.
    2Co 12:3 And I know such a man (whether in the body, or apart from the body, I know not; God knoweth),
    2Co 12:4 how that he was caught up into Paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

    Faith alone is what gets us into heaven.
    Our reward is determined by our works.

    John 6:28 They said therefore unto him, What must we do, that we may work the works of God?
    John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
     
  16. J. Jump

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    The lady that touched the hem of His garment didn't ask. There are some other examples of Jesus healing people that didn't asked to be healed.

    I agree with that.

    Well let's just see if Sripture bears that out for us:

    Luke 23:42: And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!"

    Sure sounds like he was asking to be included in the "coming" kingdom.
     
  17. J. Jump

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    Nor did he imply it was party central.
     
  18. Brother Bob

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    Question to all;

    1. Do you agree that when Jesus arose from the grave that many bodies of the saints arose with Him?

    2. What happened to those bodies of the Saints?

    Peace,
     
  19. Hope of Glory

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    A thought: Think about the prodigal son. A picture of a saved person who squandered his inheritance. We don't know what took place before the story, but he had to have an inheritance to squander. If the thief on the cross was saved at that moment, did he also have an inheritance to squander?
     
  20. Gina B

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    I'm too busy wondering how anyone hanging on a cross would be in the condition to right-mindedly speak let alone have a conversation, to waste my time surmising the fates of people whose eternal dwelling will not change an iota even if I perfectly and correctly guess their hearts and God's mind.

    BTW, captivity was led captive, and those in Paradise taken to eternal life. Eternal security wasn't a concept thought up a while after the cross. Salvation, which is eternal, always was and is.
     

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