Thinking of the Non-Logical Genre

Your conclusion is fair enough, and I'm more than willing to help you understand election as much as the Lord wills.

Also, Greek is a lot like English in that one word can have 5 or 6 or so meanings. The meaning of the word has a lot to do with the context of the words around it, and in the grammatical structure, which I'm not at all qualified to teach. I don't know any Greek but I know that much at least. So, keep that in mind before you make assumptions like that.


Soli Deo Gloria,
Dustin

 

My post simply illustrates the problem highlighted in the OP on the side of the Arminian POV being expressed there. How is it "off topic" to illustrate the same Arminian argument in the OP??

The concepts of Calvinism make certain predictions as to the concepts of the Arminian view.

We already agree that "not everybody is saved"
We already agree that saints will KNOW people in hell.

Moving on with the obvious - the scenario predicted is incredibly apparent to the objective reader.

My post "relies upon the teaching of Calvinism" to make it's case. Each of the salient points in the illustration are backed up by quotes from Calvinists on this very board. (Though I did not include those quotes in the summary example to save space and time). The point is that the Calvinist principles that are being highlighted (such as the one JohnP illustrated in the Post) are in fact REAL positions already taken on this very board.

In Christ,

Bob

 

gekko:

"if God made certain people for the sole purpose of sending them to hell - then there is no choice."

This is not a matter of 'logic'. It's a matter of fact or presumption. You assume wrongly, then deduce wrongly from your own wrong assumption. That is not 'logic'; it's confusion.

Nowhere does anyone read where God "made certain people for the sole purpose of sending them to hell".

On the contrary, we read that God made man for to be in His own image: what holy purpose! THAT, presupposes, free will! Nothing else could!

But what do we find? That this perfect creature, cose to choose against God's purpose with him and for him, because he chose to disobey rather than to obey. Now that, isn't 'logic'; that, is sin! Sin destroys all logic because it destroys all purpose. Death and logic are mutually exclusive. Where death reigns, there is only a will in utter bondage. That will cannot ever, choose for God's holy purpose, because it had before rejected it unto eternal consequence.

They only way out is for God, and for Him to create a new heart and a fixed determination. David prayed for no less, and was able to pray for no less, because the mercies of David had been shown to him before.

 

Actually GE argues for a slight variation on "God created some to burn in hell".

GE argues that while God created all to live in sinnless harmony - once mankind fell then all were destined for hell. Now only those whom God "selects" out in a somewhat partial - arbitrary manner - will be saved and the rest are not "created for hell" they are simply born "on their own and left to go to hell on their own".

But that begs the question - do the fallen humans have power over life to bring new people into the world apart from God's Creative act in every birth? Or is that very act of pro-creation (even of a sinful human) something that God must take part in - as creator - creating life?

If so - to what purpose does he create those sinful infants?

In Christ,

Bob

 

It's a very valid argument.


Consider the Watchtower Society, they carry Greek interliniers to try to prove that the doctrine of the Trinity is false and that Christ was not God Himself, and that the Holy Spirit is not God Himself, and to promote a pure works salvation doctrine.


I've also seen Oneness Pentecostals going to Greek to say that the Trinity is a pagan doctrine, and not orthodox.

People twist the Greek in all sorts of ways to suit thier agendas.


It's a point very well worth noting and checking out.

Isolating one word in the Greek then comparing it to another passage where the same word is used doesn't explain the context around it. That in itself it a pretty weak argument.

Read the passage in light of what Peter has already written.

Here's the ASV, one of the stricter word for word translations.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness; but is longsuffering to you-ward, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Longsuffering towards you-ward. Who? His audience, the churches. Not wishing that any should perish. Any of who? That all should come to repentance. All of who?

In light of what Peter already wrote, where can you assume that he is speaking universally of every man woman and child on the earth?

Ive used the KJV, the NIV, and the ASV to prove my point. I honestly don't know how much clearer it can be.

I'm not trying to argue for the sake of arguing, or serving some agenda, I'm just going with what the text says. Considering that this text has zip to do with the doctrine of election, you're better off finding another text to argue.

Soli Deo Gloria,
Dustin

 

But not forever, right Bob?

 

I'm thankful to God that you at least understand my position a little better. Think of it as iron sharpening iron, my brother. May God bless your study of the Word, and prosper you as He sees fit.

I'm not going nitpick your conclusion, in fact I wholeheartedly agree with the last bit. I believe that we as believers are charged to proclaim the Gospel to every creature in all of the world and that is plainly taught in Scripture.


Soli Deo Gloria,
Dustin

 

Actually - I don't remember what GE's view is on that sir.


I remember Andre's though!

In Christ,

Bob

 

My glasses makes things worse, so I'll first enlarge the print:

GE:

You've got it wrong again BR -- then make up your own version of what I would believe.

I argue that while God created all to live in sinnless harmony - but once mankind fell then all were destined for hell -- exactly as by the predetermening will and justice of God -- nothing "partial" or "arbitrary" about it.

Now only those whom God "selects" out according to His own eternal will, will be saved. The rest (none of whom ever was "created for hell") -- THEY, by their own doing (who else's?) are, by the will of God and according to His holy justice, DESTINED to go to hell.

Does that 'beg the question? Or do fallen humans have power over life or death? God is Creator, but also Judge. He is also Saviour -- hence the salvation of some namely of His Elect.