This Do, and Thou Shalt Live

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Jerry Shugart, Dec 9, 2011.

  1. Jerry Shugart

    Jerry Shugart
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    In the second chapter of the epistle to the Romans Paul reveals that a man can theoretically obtain eternal life by his "deeds" or by his "works":

    "But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile" (Ro.2:5-9).

    Those who continue in well doing will be given eternal life. Paul says that it is the doers of the law who shall be justified:

    "For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified" (Ro.2:13).

    If it was theoretically impossible for those under the law to be justified before God by law-keeping then it certainly would make no sense for Paul to say that "the doers of the law shall be justified." If it is not theoretically possible for anyone to obtain eternal life by keeping the commandements then the Lord Jesus certainly would not have told anyone that they could inherit eternal life by keeping the law. But He did:

    "And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live" (Lk.10:25-28).
     
  2. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
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    jerry

    Thats a lie. Gal 2:16

    Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

    Te Law was not even given to man for that purpose, man corrupted it. Gal 3:21

    Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

    Now the doers of the Law in Rom 2 are believers in Christ, who has fulfilled and performed all the law for them, and God accepts that as if they done it themselves ! Rom 10:4

    4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
     
  3. preacher4truth

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    You completely miss the context in these passages, and what Jesus meant in the passage of Luke. Your conclusions are based on proof-texting, and miss the dogmatic truth that one can never be saved by works.
     
  4. Amy.G

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    God will judge the works of those who "suppressed the truth" in their unrighteousness. They rejected God completely and God turned them over their own evil desires (Rom 1). They are obviously unsaved and will face judgment for rejecting the truth, in contrast to those who seek the truth and eternal life (the saved).

    Context!
     
  5. savedbymercy

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    The do and live principle is salvation by works, its condemned by the scripture !
     
  6. Jerry Shugart

    Jerry Shugart
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    Are Paul's words a lie? Of course no one is justified by his works and of course no one obtains eternal life by his works but that is because all men chose to sin according to their own free will. But that does not mean that a man does not have the ability to keep the law perfectly. Why else would the lord Jesus tell anyone that they can obtain eternal life by keeping the law? If man does not have the ability to keep it perfectly then the lord Jesus would have never told anyone that they can obtain eternal life by keeping the law.

    If a person does not have the ability to keep the law then why would Paul say, "For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified" (Ro.2:13).

    According to your ideas a person does not have the ability to keep the law but despite this he is severely punished when he does not keep it:

    "...the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil" (Ro.2:5-9).

    According to your ideas our Maker made us in such a way whereby we have no ability to keep the law and then when we do not keep it He punishes us. Do you realize how you are portraying God by that teaching?
     
  7. preacher4truth

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    Nope, Pauls words aren't a lie. However, your interpretation is false. Jesus never told anyone what you are attempting to make Him say, you simpy do not understand the truth being conveyed.

    This is where you do err, using proof-texts to prove a doctrine that is unscriptural.

    You are employing a method that nonchristian groups use. No one is able to keep or fulfill the Law, and only Christ could have ever done so. Any teaching that deviates from this truth is heresy.
     
  8. Jerry Shugart

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    Of course no one will be saved by works. But that does not mean that people do not have the ability to keep the law perfectly. The Lord Jesus was made like us in every way and He kept the law perfectly so that in itself proves that all men have the ability to keep the law:

    "For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people" (Heb.2:17).

    If man does not have the "ability" to keep the law then the Lord would not punish him when he doesn't keep the law. But we can see that God does indeed punish those who break the law:

    "...the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil" (Ro.2:5-9).
     
  9. The Biblicist

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    I don't think it is "becasue all men chose to sin" but because all man are sinners by nature and that is why they choose to sin.

    When Jesus addressed the Rich Young Ruler's question about what he could "do" to inherit eternal life, he dealt with the presumption of intrinsic goodness as the foundation for attempts to do good.

    "Why callesth thou me good? There is none good but one and that is God."

    He did not say there is "none that DOETH good" but there "IS" none good!

    Why would Jesus address the issue of "good" in dealing with the young man's question about DOING something to obtain eternal life if the problem was simply the choice???



    Would you please point out in this text anywhere Jesus said that this man or the rich young ruler "can" keep the law?
     
  10. preacher4truth

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    You're misinterpreting yet again. You're interpreting eisegetically and adding things to the Scriptures. Christ did not come to prove that "we can do it" and nothing in your texts come cllose to even implying this.

    Everything you are saying is denying Biblical truth and revelation. You are, one more time, employing proof-text theology, thus you are in grave error doctrinally.
     
  11. Jerry Shugart

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    My interpreation is not false. Here is the conversation between the Lord Jesus and a lawyer:

    "And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live" (Lk.10:25-28).

    The Lord Jesus told the lawyer that if he kept the law then he would receive eternal life. But according to you the Lord told Him that all the while knowing that he did not have the ability to keep it.
    A man has the abilty to keep the law but at one time or another all men go their own way instead of God's way. The Lord Jesus was made like us in every way and He kept the law perfectly so that in itself proves that all men have the ability to keep the law:

    "For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people" (Heb.2:17).
     
  12. Jerry Shugart

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    Your theology makes God out to be a tyrant because according to your ideas God punishes men for not being able to keep the law all the while knowing that they do not have the ability to keep it!
     
  13. preacher4truth

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    You're losing control of yourself, it's not my theology, it's Biblical revelation and truth. Of course man can't keep the Law, mankind is lost.

    Keeping the Law is an impossibility, and simply pointed to only One Person who could keep it, and by so doing is able to save the elect.

    Commanding man to keep the Law exposes to man his lost state, inability to do so, and his need of salvation. There is no such thing as self-salvation.

    You are clearly in error and your interpretations are fallacious.
     
  14. preacher4truth

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    You misunderstand Luke, and the man knew clearly he could not keep the commands. It is impossible. The doctrine you are espousing is heretical, and you are clearly missing the point of Christ here. The only way this man could fulfill this was to trust in Christ to be the atonement for him.

    Your passage in Hebrews, which you misinterpret as well, says nothing to support all men have the ability to keep the Law, anywhere. It actually shows the opposite.

    You're in grave error.
     
    #14 preacher4truth, Dec 9, 2011
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  15. The Biblicist

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    Jesus addressed this very issue when the rich young ruler came WILLINGLY to Christ to "DO" what was required to inherit eternal life.

    The first thing Jesus denied was the intrinsic goodness of man to do good.

    He said "There IS none good but one and that is God."

    The fact that He eliminated all but "one" and that "one" is God alone destroys the concept that man is instrinsically good and thus capable of doing good.

    This is an inappropriate application of this text. The writer does not mean that Christ was "made" in every detail "like his brothers." Unlike His brothers he was "made" without a father. Unlike His brothers He was not merely a man. Unlike his brother's he was made a suitable sacrifice "that he might make atonement for the sins of the people." That required to be made sinless like unto PRE-fallen Adam whereas all his brothers were products of a POST-fallen Adam.

    The scriptures declare of his brethren and all mankind that there "IS" none righteous, no, not one." However, your position requires that all men come into this world in a state of righteousness. Paul did not say, "there IS none righteous, EXCEPT infants and those who have not yet chosen to sin." However, that is exactly what your position requires.
     
  16. preacher4truth

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    The horrendous error in Shugarts theology is that he falsely assumes: 1) Man can keep and fulfill all of the Law; 2) Man, being a created being can do what only God was prophesied to do, and as the only One who could, and his false theology rejects this truth; 3) Shugart then can die for the sins of others as a perfect, spotless lamb; 4) He can then reign as "christ" on the right hand of God.


    This is nothing short of false teaching.
     
    #16 preacher4truth, Dec 9, 2011
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  17. Jerry Shugart

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    Let us look at the following verse:

    "Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God" (Ro.3:19).

    If a person does not keep the law then they are "guilty" of not keeping it. One of the principles in regard to guilt is "culpability."

    The word "culpable" means "deserving blame; blameworthy" (The American College Dictionary).

    If a person does not have the abilty to keep the law then blame cannot be put on him when he breaks the law. The word blame means "to lay the responsibility on a person" (Ibid.).

    A person cannot be held responsible for not keeping the law if he does not have the ability to keep the law.

    According to your ideas the Lord declares men guilty and responsible for not keeping the law even though he made them in such a way whereby they have no ability to keep it!

    The horrendous error in your theology is that God declares men guility for things which they have no control over.

    Your theology makes God out to be a tyrant who will punish the lame for limping and the blind for losing their way.
     
    #17 Jerry Shugart, Dec 9, 2011
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  18. Jerry Shugart

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    If a person does not have the ability to keep the law then why does Paul say, "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves" (Ro.2:14).
     
  19. preacher4truth

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    Your teaching is false. God has placed blame on mankind, as the verse you've given proves such. The Law was not given as something we could keep, but to point us to the only One who could; Jesus Christ.

    According to your ideas, you're in complete error.

    Man is not simply lame, limping and blind, as in some postion as those to have empathy toward, but are corrupt, ungodly and guilty, and justly deserving of eternal damnation. Your view of man is unscriptural.

    Not only is your theological portrait of God erroneous, but your portrait of man in unscriptural. This is why you are in such grave error.

    You're the one painting God unscripturally and portraying Him as unfair toward an unjust and ungodly human race, and you are concluding Him a tyrant and unjust for doing so.

    You've just painted man as being not guilty, when God has charged the whole entire world guilty before Him.

    You're in grave error.
     
  20. Jerry Shugart

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    No, your ideas are wrong.
    According to your false ideas God blames man for not keeping the law even though He knows that he does not even have the ability to keep it.
    No, I said that man is guilty of breaking the law and he cannot be declared guilty unless he has the ability to keep it.

    You have no concept of the righteousness of God because you portray Him as declaring men guilty of not keepiing the law even though He knows that they were not given the ability to keep it.

    Let me ask you a question:

    Can a person be held responsible for not keeping the law if he does not have the ability to keep it?

    Thanks!
     
    #20 Jerry Shugart, Dec 9, 2011
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