This Do, and Thou Shalt Live

Nope. God Himself declares men guilty of a Law which He knew we could not keep, which is merely showing man is lost in sin, to bring them to Christ. The fact that we cannot keep the law proves our lost state and need to be saved.

You've just painted God as unfair, this teaching is pelagian and false. That, and you've been admonished well beyond the Scriptural mandate to do so.

You're in grave error.

 

jerry

Of course not, but you not Paul..

 

One more time for Jerry:

You and no one else can keep the Law.

Your teaching is false.

 

Friend, you misunderstand much, you don't understand context, which leads you into much error. You also proof-text, which not only takes a passage out of context, but also doesn't employ the whole counsel of God in interpretation. Yor conclusions are those espoused by cult groups, Jehovahs Witnesses for an example.

All the world is guilty before God, which means "age" thus, this entire age then is guilty before God, which includes all who will and have ever lived within this age.

The only person who could keep the Law is Christ.

The Law was given to show the elect that they could not keep the law, to show ones guilt, and to lead them to One who could.

Your problem isn't with me, it's with God and His Word.

 

This verse does not teach what you say it teaches. It doesn't even imply it. Just another proof-text, one of your worst to date.

 

Yes! IF he has forfeited that ability! Romans 5:12-19 teaches that he forfeited that ability through representation. When Adam sinned all sinned because "BY ONE MAN'S OFFENCE MANY WERE MADE SINNERS."

Not only did he forfeit that abilty through REPRESENTATION, he was acted when Adam acted as all of human nature acted in Adam - thus all have actually sinned when Adam sinned.

 

Psa. 53:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
4 Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;
5 Which will not hearken to the voice of charmers, charming never so wisely.

Ps 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Job 15:14 What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?

Pr 22:15 ¶ Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.

Rom. 3:23 For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God

Every parent knows from observational experience that children ALWAYS require discipline to restrain evil that naturally flows from their hearts as soon as they are able to express themselves.

Solomon says this is "bound in the heart" of a child and discipline is necessary to drive it from them. David says that they were conceived "in sin."

Why is it that children need to be trained to do what is right but naturally do what is evil without any training, if they are not evil by nature from birth?

 

Why this text? It is not the fathers (plural) that acted as our representative in the garden!!!! It was Adam - "BY ONE MAN'S OFFENCE MANY WERE MADE SINNERS"

 

Abel bears the iniquity of Adam in no differnt sense than any descendent bears the iniquity of Adam. Adam (not Eve) acted in a representative capacity when tested by law. "BY ONE MAN'S OFFENCE MANY WERE MADE SINNERS" not just Abel.

The Ezekiel passage as no bearing on the first Adam any more than the Second Adam. The second Adam did not bear his own iniquity but the iniquity of others just as the first Adam passed down his iniquityto others. Hence, you cannot deny one without denying the other. Both Adam's acted as representatives for others.

The law preceded their sin as the law was established by God in the Garden before they sinned (Gen. 2:16). They broke God's law when they transgressed His direct command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

It was this very law that Paul argues that all Adam's descendents violated when Adam sinned - "BY ONE MAN'S OFFENCE MANY WERE MADE SINNERS".

Proof that all mankind sinned when Adam sinned is that sin was present in the world between Adam and Moses and yet no other law was in the world. This means all mankind living between Adam and Moses were SINNERS by nature and that is why death reigned between Adam and Moses when no other law existed but that one in the garden.

Rom. 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses..."

I agree with you concerning the law of conscience. However, the scriptures disagree with your theory that Adam brought law into the garden. God brought law in the Garden PRIOR to Adam's fall. It is not an either or but both! Most importantly the latter is a direct consequence of the former not vice versa. Because Adam violated God's Law he sinned and became experientially knowledgable of good versus evil.

Both sin and death existed between Adam and Moses. Mankind sinned against conscience BECAUSE by "ONE MAN"S OFFENCE MANY WERE MADE SINNERS" by nature. Hence, a sinful nature preceded sinning against conscience.

 

Now is the time for all good men to come to the aide of truth.

Jerry, you are speaking the plain truth on this matter as I read you. You are not proof texting as some '4truth' claim you are. You are simply are coming to Scripture devoid of the presupposition of Augustinian original sin.

May your tribe increase! Lead on!:thumbsup:

We need to start thinking right about truth and theology again.

 

Jerry, in your first post you hit the nail on the head as to the very core of every system of fatalistic necessity, separating that system of necesity from the truth. The heart of the matter lies in the simple words, "theoretically impossible." Upon that solitary notion is the great divide between a system of liberty, freedom, morality, justice, and that of one of fatalistic determinism.

As you well know, when one eliminates the 'theoretic possibility' of obedience to the law, there is no other end but a system of necessity. Oh what great error the elimination in ones theology/philosophy of 'theoretic possibilities' gender.

 

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HP: I could not even imagine how to play the devils advocate on this matter. I would have to throw out every bit of Divine truths instilled in my heart by God to even consider a response to your answer. God has instilled guidelines of absolute truth in my heart and I cannot think outside of those Divine parameters of immutable justice.

 

I'm going to jump in here with a couple of thoughts on the question before us.

Theoretically, and I emphasize theoretically, if one could keep the law perfectly, then God would allow him into heaven.

But, you better keep all of it, because James 2:10 says even if you keep it all but fail to keep just one small part of it, it's the same as if you broke all of it.

The reality of it is, that by the time we are old enough to learn to read that verse, we have already sinned. Bummer. We mess up one time, and we're done for.

Jesus, in Matthew 5:48 said

Some might say that God wouldn't tell us to do something that was impossible. But that's not the intent of that verse. It is to tell us that God can't cut us any slack. He can't tell us it's all right not to be perfect. He could never say it's okay to sin.

Then, Paul drives the dagger through the heart. Romans 8:7-8

So, in theory, if we could keep the law, we could save ourselves. But in reality, it's impossible, because we can't.

 

Tom we speak of a perfect date, and even some speak of a perfect wife or a perfect husband. We speak of a perfect game, and a perfect diamond, of a perfect day, and a perfect trip, even a perfect baby or child.

Could one (of an individual saying no one can be perfect,) in reality be guilty of making the perfection God demands of man to be viewed as something it is not in reality according to the way God sees perfection in man? Could not the perfection, that God demands of us humans, be relative in many ways, such as knowledge, light. abilities, etc? Does an adult act on the same level of obedience as say a child? What do you think?

One thing I know for certain is, that God requires no impossibilities from man. God is Just.