"This generation will certainly not pass"

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by jv717, Apr 16, 2004.

  1. jv717

    jv717
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    I had a really hard time with this scripture:

    Luke 21:32 / Mark 13:30 / Matthew 24:34
    "I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

    It still has a clench on me. What do you think because it didn't come to pass?

    :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:
     
  2. HankD

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    Most believe that the term "generation" has to be limited to 30-70 years and refers to those who were listening to Him at the moment, but why can't the word refer to a more generic less time constraining entity?

    This word genea (Strong 1074)is a supposed derivation of genos (Strong 1085). As in:

    1 Peter 2:9
    But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

    HankD
     
  3. Debby in Philly

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    In the pre-trib rapture camp, I think this statement is being more and more construed to be the generation of new believers that begins to spring up after the rapture being the one that will not pass away (or be totally wiped out) until the tribulation is over (7 years). Not the folks alive at the time of the incorporation of Israel as a state in 1949. (Although some of us are still around!) After all, further on in the Matthew passage we are also told that the rapture will come at a time when we least expect. That does not balance if the two thoughts are about the same "generation." But the tribulation believers, seeing the drama unfold, will know exactly what to expect next and when, if they discern scripture correctly.

    The not knowing is for us, prior to the rapture. The knowing, or reading of the signs, is for them, afterward.
    Although the original theory could still be seen to be plausible, since as I stated above, some folks from 1949 are still around!
     
  4. Debby in Philly

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    My above reference to the state of Israel is the idea that the fig tree putting forth it's leaves refers to the re-establishment of the state of Israel in 1949. Also just a theory.
     
  5. TWade

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    Some believe that "this generation" is in reference to the generation that is alive when these signs begin to take place.
     
  6. Grasshopper

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    Perhaps it did come to pass.
     
  7. Daniel David

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    Jesus qualified 'this generation' with all those things that would come to pass. So far, they have not come to pass.

    The generation that sees the events will not pass away before it is completed. In other words, all those events will happen right before that generation. It won't continue on into the next generation.

    Preterism is really an attempt to rescue Christ from the liberals. Alas, more could be said, but I will bite my tongue for now.
     
  8. Lorelei

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    If it had come to pass you would have to believe that the things that happened within that 'time' period were worse than anything that has happened since then. I am certain there are people who try to make that argument, but I don't buy it. Historically it doesn't add up.

    My Bible program has a footnote that says the word can be translated as race. My interlinear says the following:

    ~Lorelei
     
  9. Jailminister

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    Actually Israel became a nation with its present boundaries in 1967.

    Let's see: A generation is normally 40 or some may say 50 years.

    1967+40=2007
    or
    1967+50=2017.

    You never know. Time will tell.
     
  10. Daniel David

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    Actually, JM, Christ never says anything about Israel becoming a nation again and the generation=40 years. This is really the interpretation of that one guy who wrote - 88 reasons why Christ will return in 88.

    Please point out where Christ said anything about Israel returning to the nation status.
     
  11. Charles Meadows

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    I think a strong (but not airtight) argument can be made that Jesus was referring to the destruction of Jerusalem - He does seem to be significantly concerned with the "temple".

    I don't claim to be a TRUE preterist - and indeed seeing the book of Revelation as referring to the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem is not nearly as easy. Still I think this is perhaps the best way to see Jesus prophecy in the "little apocalypse".
     
  12. Dr. Bob

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    1967 Jerusalem was no longer downtrodden of the Gentiles.

    Could be this Generation (alive in 1967) will not die until seeing the other signs come to pass.
     
  13. Frogman

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    Dr. Bob,
    I wasn't 'alive' until 1969, does this mean this passage doesn't apply to me :eek: :eek:

    Brother Dallas, two years too late :(
     
  14. Daniel David

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    Dr. Bob, is Jerusalem in the sole custody of Jews today?
     
  15. Grasshopper

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    Why can't it mean what it says?

    They saw them all.

    It adds up if you were a Jew at the time. Their city, Temple, geneological records were all destroyed. Over a million were killed, the rest were taken into captivity or dispersed thru-out the land. Their world as they knew it was over and over forever.

    See if you can get a refund.

    Read the first part of Mathew and do the math. Then tell us how long a generation is. Unless of course he means "race".

    Bingo! I've heard Revelation called John's Olivet Discourse.

    Could this be another prediction?

    What do Historians have to say?

    Seneca (A.D.65), “How often have cities in Asia, how often in Achaia, been laid low by a single shock of earthquake! How many towns in Syria, how many in Macedonia, have been swallowed up! How often has this kind of devastation laid Cyprus in ruins! How often has Paphos collapsed! Not infrequently are tidings brought to us of the utter destruction of entire cities” (Seneca Ad Lucilium Epistulae Morales, 437)

    Eusebius, the Christian historian from the late third century. He said, "The whole body, however, of the church at Jerusalem, having been commanded by a divine revelation, given men of approved piety there before the war, removed from the city, and dwelt at a certain town beyond the Jordan called Pella. Here, those that believed in Christ, having removed from Jerusalem, as if holy men had entirely abandoned the royal city itself, and the whole land of Judea; the divine justice, for their crimes against Christ and his apostles, finally overtook them, totally destroying the whole generation of these evildoers from the earth...these facts, as well as the whole tenor of the war, and each particular of its progress, when finally the abomination of desolation, according to the prophetic declaration, stood in the very temple of God, so celebrated of old, but which now was approaching its total downfall and final destruction by fire; all this, I say any one that wishes may see accurately stated in the history written by Josephus." (Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History, Book 3, Ch. 5)

    Here is a quotation from the Jewish historian, Josephus, which he wrote about the Jewish War in his generation. When the Jews revolted against Rome, he wrote, "It is, therefore, impossible to go distinctly over every instance of these men's iniquity. I shall, therefore, speak my mind here at once briefly, that neither did any other city ever suffer such miseries, nor did any age ever breed a generation more fruitful in wickedness than this was, from the beginning of the world" (Josephus' War V:X:5 c.f. V:XIII:6; Matt. 24:21; Dan. 12:1)

    What Josephus saw after the destruction of Jerusalem, he wrote, "...and made the whole city run down with blood, to such a degree indeed that the fire of many of the houses was quenched with these men's blood. And truly so it happened, that though the slayers left off at the evening, yet did the fire greatly prevail in the night; and as all was burning, came that eighth day of the month Gorpieus [Elul], upon Jerusalem, a city that had been liable to so many miseries during this siege, that had it always enjoyed as much happiness from its first foundation, it would certainly have been the envy of the world. Nor did it on any other account so much deserve these sore misfortunes, as by producing such a generation of men as were the occasion of this its overthrow" (Josephus' Wars VII.IX.5)

    Now, how about a word study. This from Todd Dennis.

    Get out your concordance and look up every New Testament occurrence of the word generation (in Greek, genea) and see if it ever means 'race' in any other context. Here are all the references for the Gospels: Matthew 1:17; 11:16; 12:39, 41, 42, 45; 16:4; 17:17; 23:36; 24:34; Mark 8:12, 38; 9:19; 13:30; Luke 1:48, 50; 7:31; 9:41; 11:29, 30, 31, 32, 50, 51; 18:8; 17:25; 21:32. Not one of these references is speaking of the entire Jewish race over thousands of years; all use the word in its normal sense of the sum total of those living at the same time. It always refers to contemporaries. In fact, those who say it means "race" tend to acknowledge this fact, but explain that the word suddenly changes its meaning when Jesus uses it in Matthew 24!"

    Generation
    Gr. genea, (1074) "a generation; by implication an age (the period or the persons)"
    AV - generation 37, time 2, age 2, nation 1; 42
    1) fathered, birth, nativity
    2) that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family
    2a) the several ranks of natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy
    2b) metaph. a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character
    2b1) esp. in a bad sense, a perverse nation
    3) the whole multitude of men living at the same time
    4) an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied be each successive generation), a space of 30 - 33 years
    Examples:

    Matthew 23:36 "Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation &lt;1074&gt;."
    Matthew 24:34 "Verily I say unto you, This generation &lt;1074&gt; shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."
    Luke 1:50 "And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation &lt;1074&gt; to generation &lt;1074&gt;."
    Acts 14:16 "Who in times &lt;1074&gt; past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways."
    Acts 13:36 "For David, after he had served his own generation &lt;1074&gt; by the will of God, fell on sleep..."
    Acts 15:21 "For Moses of old time &lt;1074&gt; hath in every city them that preach him..."


    Commonly Mistaken Words Which Are Translated "Generation":

    Gr. genos (1085) "kin (abs. or con., lit. or fig., indiv. or coll."
    AV - kind 5, kindred 3, offspring 3, nation 2, stock 2, born 2, diversity 1, misc. 3; 21
    1) kindred
    1a) offspring
    1b) family
    1c) stock, tribe, nation
    1c1) i.e. nationality or descent from a particular people
    1d) the aggregate of many individuals of the same nature, kind, sort

    Examples:

    Matthew 17:21 "Howbeit this kind &lt;1085&gt; goeth not out but by prayer and fasting. .."

    Mark 7:26 "The woman was a Greek, a Syrophenician by nation &lt;1085&gt;.."

    Acts 18:24 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born &lt;1085&gt; at Alexandria, an eloquent man.."

    I Peter 2:9 "But ye are a chosen generation &lt;1085&gt;, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, ..."

    Gr. genemma (1081) "offspring; by anal. produce (lit. or fig.)"
    AV - fruit 5, generation 4; 9
    1) that which has been born or begotten
    1a) the offspring or progeny of men or animals
    1b) the fruits of the earth, the produce of agriculture

    Matthew 12:34 "O generation &lt;1081&gt; of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh."

    Matthew 23:33 "Ye serpents, ye generation &lt;1081&gt; of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? (notice that this is only three verses from v.36)

    Matthew 26:29 "But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit &lt;1081&gt; of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom."


    Translations

    King James:
    "Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

    New English Bible:
    "I tell you this: the present generation will live to see it all."

    Today's English Version:
    "Remember this! All these things will happen before the people now living have all died."

    Moffatt's Translation:
    "I tell you truly, the present generation will not pass away, till all this happens."

    Weymouth's Translation:
    "I tell you in solemn truth that the present generation will certainly not pass away until all this has taken place."
     
  16. Daniel David

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    GH, despite the obvious errors in your post, my point to JM was that Christ never said anything about Israel becoming a nation again in the Olivet Discourse.

    Of course, I don't interpret the Scriptures by lost historians.
     
  17. Grasshopper

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    Do you interpret History by lost Historians?
     
  18. Daniel David

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    Here is what is so unbelievable about preterists:

    Christ said it would be the worst time in history. Nothing was ever worse, and nothing ever will be worse.

    So the destruction of a little city with 1,000,000 people dying is worse than the following:

    400 year slavery of the Jews to Egypt
    The first destruction of Jerusalem
    The flood which wiped out all but 8 people
    World War 1
    World War 2
    Korean War
    Vietnam War
    100 year war
    etc.

    How utterly hilarious.
     
  19. Lorelei

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    It does, but it was said in a different language and their definitions were not limited to our current day English ones. That is why sometimes we have to ask ourselves, "what did that word mean when Jesus actually spoke it?"



    Jesus specifically said that the distress would be "unequaled from the beginning of the world until now-and never to be equaled again". He did not say that it would only seem that way if you were a Jew at that time. History speaks for itself.

    ~Lorelei
     
  20. Grasshopper

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    I think you gave some excellent advice on how to interpret that scripture.

     

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