"This generation"

Does the history telling us, anyone already see sun, moon, stars become darkened? Secondly, does the history telling us, anyone see Jesus Christ come with his angels in the sky already?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Wow!
This is a first for me.
On THIS point, I agree with DPT.
Amen.
In His service;
Jim

 

I have often wondered about that. Some say that this generation is the generation that is alive when these things happen (no matter how far into the future). Others say that it would not make any sense to mean anyone other than those that Jesus spoke to - i.e, it would have to happen in their lifetime. I guess the question is: What exactly does this generation mean?

 

As a matter of fact, yes. However you make a mistake when you try to literalize metaphoric and symbolic language. Notice these OT passages dealing with judgement using figurative language. These are all historical events.

Judgement on Egypt(530BC)
Ez.32:7 And when I shall extinguish thee, I will cover the heavens, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give its light .
8 All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land , saith the Lord Jehovah.

Fall of Babylon(539BC)
Is. 13: 10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light; the sun shall be darkened in its going forth, and the moon shall not cause its light to shine.

Fall of Israel
Amos 8: 8 Shall not the land tremble for this, and every one mourn that dwelleth therein? yea, it shall rise up wholly like the River; and it shall be troubled and sink again, like the River of Egypt.
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord Jehovah, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day.

Judgement on Nineveh
Nahum 1
1 The burden of Nineveh. The book of the vision of Nahum the Elkoshite.
2 Jehovah is a jealous God and avengeth; Jehovah avengeth and is full of wrath; Jehovah taketh vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies.
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt; and the earth is upheaved at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.

Judgement on Edom
Is. 34: 4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll; and all their host shall fade away, as the leaf fadeth from off the vine, and as a fading leaf from the fig-tree.
5 For my sword hath drunk its fill in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Edom, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.

Now notice the words of Jesus who follows the pattern of the OT Prophets:

Matt. 24: 29 But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Heavenly bodies were often used in the OT to represent Kings, Kingdoms, Empires, governments, and peoples. Why would Jesus change this pattern?

First, Jesus says some of His disciples would see this event. Matt: 16:27-28. So either He was wrong or your understanding is wrong.

"Comings", and "coming in clouds" were a common theme in the OT. Usually in Judgement:

Isaiah 19:1 The burden of Egypt . Behold, Jehovah rideth upon a swift cloud , and cometh unto Egypt : and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.

Ps. 18: 9 He bowed the heavens also, and came down; And thick darkness was under his feet.
10 And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly; Yea, he soared upon the wings of the wind.

Micah 1: 3 For, behold, Jehovah cometh forth out of his place, and will come down , and tread upon the high places of the earth.

Ex. 3: 8 and I am come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians,

Exodus 16:10 - It came about as Aaron spoke to the whole congregation of the sons of Israel, that they looked toward the wilderness, and behold, the glory of the LORD appeared in the cloud.

Exodus 19:9 - The LORD said to Moses, " Behold, I will come to you in a thick cloud, so that the people may hear when I speak with you and may also believe in you forever." Then Moses told the words of the people to the LORD.

Exodus 34:5 - The LORD descended in the cloud and stood there with him as he called upon the name of the LORD.

Leviticus 16:2 - The LORD said to Moses: "Tell your brother Aaron that he shall not enter at any time into the holy place inside the veil, before the mercy seat which is on the ark, or he will die; for I will appear in the cloud over the mercy seat.”

Numbers 11:25 - Then the LORD came down in the cloud and spoke to him....

Were any of those physical/visible comings? How would those 1st century Jews interpret the words of Jesus concerning His coming in the clouds? Caiaphus understood it.(Matt 26:64) It is judgement language. The destruction of Jerusalem in AD70 occured just 40 years after Jesus uttered these words. That generation saw His coming in Judgement. Read the commentaries of the theolgians pre-1900 and see that many understood the apocalyptic nature of the language and not force it into a literal/physical intepretation.

 

Grasshopper,

I am not talking about Old Testament verses, I am not ignore O.T. verses. I do know these in the O.T. were already fulfilled.

But, the context of verse 34 focus on the coming of Christ and the end of the world on chapter 24.

I believe verse 29 of cosmic disturbance taken literal and physical, not spiritually.

Again, I ask you, does the history(post Pentacost Day era) telling us, any person saw Jesus Christ comes with his angels in the sky already? I demand the proof or evidence from the history with visibly and physically.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Then why do you force a literal interpretation of the very same language used in th OT that is clearly figurative?

Not the end of the world, but the end of the "age". Check the Greek.

Why? When nowhere else in the scriptures that those 1st century Jews had was it ever literal. This is your mistake. You cannot allow it to be figurative or your whole eschatological view falls apart.

You demand proof of something scripture does not teach. Is Matt 16:27-28 inspired or not? Read John 14:3-4,22.

 

I wonder why there is still a temple wall standing in Jerusalem today?

 

Gentlemen,

I am also a preterist, at least to a very substantial extent, but I can NOT agree that the words, “SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory” refer to a past event. When this language is compared with the language used by Paul and Peter, I believe it is quite clear that these words have not yet been fulfilled.


Matt. 24
29. "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30. "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
31. "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Luke 21
25. "There will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves,
26. men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
27. "Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD with power and great glory.
28. "But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

1 Thes. 4
13. But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.
14. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
15. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
18. Therefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Cor. 15
50. Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51. Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
52. in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
53. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54. But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.
55. "O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?"
56. The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law;
57. but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your toil is not in vain in the Lord.

2 Thes. 2
1. Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
2. that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
3. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
4. who opposes and exalts himself above every so- called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
5. Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?
6. And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.
7. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.
8. Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;

9. that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,
10. and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.
11. For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,
12. in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.
13. But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
14. It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15. So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.
16. Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace,
17. comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word.

2 Pet. 3
1. This is now, beloved, the second letter I am writing to you in which I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder,
2. that you should remember the words spoken beforehand by the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior spoken by your apostles.
3. Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts,
4. and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation."
5. For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water,
6. through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water.
7. But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8. But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
9. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
A New Heaven and Earth
10. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
11. Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
12. looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!
13. But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.
14. Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless,
15. and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you,
16. as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
17. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,
18. but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

All scriptures NASB, 1995

 

The fact that Hal Lindsey and other dispensationalists are a bunch of fruitcakes does not mean that they are wrong in understanding the second coming of Christ as an historic event.

 

Just wrong timing is all.

 

Uh, Revelation was written AFTER the fall of Jerusalem and therefore cannot be a symbolic/figurative PROPHECY of it...

 

Sirs,

Along with the great referrences that craigbythesea gave there is also the fact that all the O.T. prophecies of Jesus' first coming were literal. Why would God switch to sysbolism for His Sons second coming? It doesn't make sense!

As to the question about Mt.16:28, it should be answered the same as Dan.9:24-27 where Daniel prophisied of "seventy weeks". Sixty Nine of those weeks (or 483 years) are fullfilled at the time of Christs death on the cross (this happened literally). The seventieth week (years 484-490) of "Jacob's Troubles" Jer.30:7 should have started soon after but it didn't. Instead God brought in a mystery Eph.3, a new dispensation Col.1:25 which was hidden from mankind until the appointed time. Prophecy was put on hold and the church age began. Prophecy shall begin again with the seven years commonly known as the tribulation. In the mean time we live in the church age, the dispensation of grace and await our Lords return just as all saints throughout the ages have waited.

Maranatha!

Geno

 

Could Matt. 16:28 be refering to John's vision of these things occuring? He definatelly "saw" these things come to pass.

Thoughts?

 

So far you have proven nothing but your unwillingness to take God at His Word. Much of what you list above is characteristic of "hyper-dispensationalism," and is clearly inaccurate, to be sure.

 

This is the problem with sticking too closely to any theological system; they all have flaws and unanswered questions. Most of the answers and problems of the above post are come to by applying a different theological structer to scripture, something like covenant theology, or Christocentric theology. They are all man made structures of looking at scripture and are subject to error.

 

No. That is extremely farfetched.