This question was posed to me ...

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by rbs, Jun 2, 2005.

  1. rbs

    rbs
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    ... by a non-believer.

    "If you truly believe all of the bible, explain these verses to me" (listed below). What would your understanding of these scriptures be in response be to this person -- an individual who is a firm non-believer they indicate because you either believe all of the Word or you don't - to which I agree, I just so happen to believe all of the Word, he doesn't ... and the discussion has led to this point thus far?

    Deuteronomy 22:10-11 (English Standard Version)

    10You shall not plow with an ox and a donkey together. 11You shall not wear cloth of wool and linen mixed together.

    Deuteronomy 23:1-2

    1"No one whose testicles are crushed or whose male organ is cut off shall enter the assembly of the LORD. 2"No one born of a forbidden union may enter the assembly of the LORD. Even to the tenth generation, none of his descendants may enter the assembly of the LORD.

    Leviticus 11:10-12

    10But anything in the seas or the rivers that has not fins and scales, of the swarming creatures in the waters and of the living creatures that are in the waters, is detestable to you. 11You shall regard them as detestable; you shall not eat any of their flesh, and you shall detest their carcasses. 12Everything in the waters that has not fins and scales is detestable to you.

    Leviticus 21:18

    18For no one who has a blemish shall draw near, a man blind or lame, or one who has a mutilated face or a limb too long,
     
  2. Marcia

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    These were laws specifically given to the Jews, whom God was calling out to be apart from the pagans around them. I would say to the person asking that one must look at the whole context of something and see who these laws were being given to and under what circumstance.

    We can find all kinds of things in the Bible but that does not mean God is speaking them to us. When God told Jonah to go to Nineveh, He is not telling us to go to Nineveh, for example.

    I don't know about the person asking you this, but a lot of unbelievers will pick out passages like this and ask Christians why they are not observing these laws. These people do not really want an answer, they just want to argue or try to confuse you.

    I would ask this person is they are truly mystified by these passages and truly want to know the answers to see what their response would be.
     
  3. obscureone

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    Good response, Marcia. I would add that God was also demonstrating His Lordship over His people Israel by giving the commands that He gave. He has the right to require of them whatever He wills, consistent with His character.
     
  4. danrusdad

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    Ask them if they know the difference between the moral law, the ceremonial law, and the civil law in the OT.
     
  5. Artimaeus

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    I don't think God seperated the law into subcatagories. You either kept the whole law or you didn't keep the whole law. You either keep the whole law now or you don't keep the whole law now. I don't keep the law.

    Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
     
  6. av1611jim

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    Any and every time someone brings such "questions" to me:
    1. I must realize they are trying to dodge personal responsibility before a Holy God.
    2. I must realize that these type of questions tend to deflect the personal requirments of sin and salvation.
    3. Based on the above I show them 1 Cor. 2:9-16. I then tell them that it will be impossible for them to understand a Book written by a Spirit Being since they have a "dead" spirit.
    4. I then make it personal and hit them with the fact they, personally, have sinned against God, have no hope, and must repent and believe the gospel.
    5. I then tell them that until this happens, I can answer their questions all day long but they will never understand it. It is not for them to understand, UNTIL, they have been born anew.
    6. I keep it very personal when I can.

    In HIS service;
    Jim
     
  7. ituttut

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  8. Sularis

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    Man - Id go for simplistic answers - a lot of people accuse Christians of dodging

    Ox and donkey thats easy - perhaps they can both pull great loads but they do so differently (speed pace, etc...) - would you harness a cat and dog together? No

    The fabric question is the only decent one of the lot

    But the answer for that - is twofold - one look different then the pagan bums and two supposedly wool and linen when woven together have this supernatural evil hoodoo - personally reason one is enough for me - but since I cant prove reason two - and the sources are iffy

    on the testes question - where is the symbol of the old covenant folks - thats right the male sex organ - any mutilation of the sexual organs of anybody is against God's commands

    Gee why would God say dont marry someone and then not have a consequence for some horny toad who did?

    Sure it's great to point them to grace - but sometimes they will think you are avoiding the question - its not hard to at least make an effort to answer their questions - even the dumb ones.

    like the ox and donkey - like come on if the answer to that one wasnt OBVIOUS!
     
  9. Sularis

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    OOps I forgot the sea crawlies

    wel gee they eat poo - would you eat poo? - would you eat something that eats poo? I will if I have to - but lets just say better to avoid all appearances of poo

    and to the blemishes - gee a lot of horrible deforming diseases floating around - perhaps avoiding horribly deformed people might reduce the risk of catching one of said diseases
     
  10. TexasSky

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    Romans 10:4 "Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes."

    Christ said, in Matthew 12:5-8 "Or havent' you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent? I tell you that one greater than the temple is here. If you had know what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent. For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."

    The law was made to serve man, not man to serve the law. We forget that at times. Every law in the bible, if followed, would make for a healthier and happier society.

    1) A donkey and a mule pull unevenly and they don't often get along. Putting them together could destroy the plow and the animals both.

    2) Wool is strong, but it shrinks much more than linen does, which is weak. Mixing the fabrics ruins both.

    3)Eunichs are blessed in Isaiah 56:4-5, and granted access to the temples.

    4) The most dangerous and deadly of seafoods are the ones forbidden in Leviticus. Improper cleaning, slicing or cooking could lead to death.

    AND - the new testament tells us that God said the food restrictions were not valid for Christians. (The sheet.)

    5) The symptoms fit leprosy and polio-survivors. Both highly contagious diseases that killed thousands.

    The laws were protective.
     
  11. richard n koustas

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    i think that there is a deeper truth to some of these restrictions.

    donkey and mule: 2Cr 6:14 "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?" a donkey and mule would be ineffective when yoked together. we, as christians, loose our effectiveness when unequally yoked, with unbelievers.

    wool and linen. besides what was mentioned already...the garment of the priest (in service) was made of 100%linen (down to the breeches!- Ex. 36:28). I'm sure that the common folk wore wool. You would be instantly able to recognize a priest in service by his outward appearance. just like those that see you and i, should know that we are christains by our outward appearance, not necessarily by the way we dress, but by the way we act.

    Lev. 21:18 - as best i can tell, these are the requirements for the high priest that approached God (the high priest was a subset of the priests, that were a subset of Levites). this is a picture or type of Jesus our high priest. God required physical perfection as a type for the sinless, blameless, perfect Son (the great high priest) to come.
     
  12. TexasSky

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    Richard,

    Awesome. [​IMG]
     
  13. richard n koustas

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    there is something about the fins and scales. fins help power and direct the fish through the water and scales repell the water. notice that to keep cerimonial clean, both are required. we need the power of the fin to keep us moving through this world -- toward the prize--(1Cr 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.) and the scales are needed to keep the influences of the world away from us.
     
  14. Sounddoctrine04

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    I agree with av1611jim. Attempting to explain spiritual truths (which are behind the laws given above) to a "firm unbeliever" is like attempting to teach a worm how to play the piano. Even many professing Christians have a difficult time with these passages (as evidenced in the responses above). Remember the "pearls before the swine" reproof.
     
  15. webdog

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    You do keep the law and are not even aware of it. Do you pay taxes? Drive the speed limit? Use a restroom marked 'men'? Wear clothes in public? Pay bills? You are keeping the civil law.

    Do you murder? Commit adultery? Worship false gods? If not you are keeping the moral law. Can't say you don't follow any of it.
     
  16. Pastor Larry

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    Point out that those were laws given to the nation of Israel. The people bound by them are the nation of Israel in teh theocracy. The NT tells us that Christ was the end of the Law (Rom 10:4)
     
  17. Humblesmith

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    When most people ask "What does this mean?" they confuse "what" it says with "why" it is said. For example, if I say "Come over to my house tonight" then what I meant is very, very clear. But you don't know why I'm asking you to come over. But the meaning is very clear.

    So when God says the commands in the first post, the immediate meaning is very clear: Don't hitch a donkey and an ox to the same plow. However, we don't always know why He said it. We can speculate about why we think He said it, but unless the text says why, we don't know. But we do know what it means.

    (btw, anyone who has ever plowed with animals would know exactly why. Plus, fish with scales are clean, fish without scales can make you sick.)
     
  18. Sounddoctrine04

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    Not being able to "rightly divide the word of truth" is quite apparent in here! For so many people not to be able to discern the spiritual truths behind, for example, the ox and ass plowing together, just floors me! Also, the type of government Israel had, the special convenant God had with Israel, et al, disqualifies the gentile from the civil and ceremonial laws. Any "moral laws" which the NT Christian is obligated to follow is repeated in the post-crucifixion New Testament (which is a redundant statement but is given for understanding because most Christians don't know where the NT really begins).

    If you're having that much dificulty rightly dividing the word of truth, then I suggest you find another church that teaches sound doctrine so you can grow.
     
  19. Humblesmith

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    The question was "what do these mean?" If the question would have been "what are the spriritual truths behind these?" then there would have been a different answer.

    For example, one OT command was "don't boil a kid in its mother's milk." What it means is clear. The spiritual implications behind it is not.
     

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