This their sin, God was pleased

Discussion in 'Fundamental Baptist Forum' started by plain_n_simple, Oct 12, 2012.

  1. plain_n_simple

    plain_n_simple
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    From the Westminster confession: Of the Fall of Man, of Sin, and the Punishment thereof

    I. Our first parents, being seduced by the subtilty and temptations of Satan, sinned, in eating the forbidden fruit. This their sin, God was pleased, according to His wise and holy counsel, to permit, having purposed to order it to His own glory.

    I thought that God hates sin.

    If love thinks the best, why would God expect His creation to fail?

    That is not love, and God is love. This contradicts.
     
  2. Mexdeaf

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    Our definition and understanding of love is not eternal and His is.
     
  3. plain_n_simple

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    I was getting my definition of love from scripture.
     
  4. 12strings

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    So your theory is God did not permit the fall?
     
  5. plain_n_simple

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    My belief is He did not cause it or want it.
     
  6. 12strings

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    But he allowed it to happen for some reason we don't fully understand...in other words, something about allowing the fall "pleased" him more than preventing the fall would have "pleased" him?
     
  7. plain_n_simple

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    He trusted Adam and Eve. Total trust is also total love.
    He gave them freewill, this proves He loved and trusted them totally.
    Love thinks the best, faith works through love. God did not create them to fail, but to succeed in tending the garden, subduing the earth, multiplying.
     
  8. Mexdeaf

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    From YOUR understanding of Scripture, you mean. :)

    We see through a glass darkly.
     
  9. plain_n_simple

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    Could you give me your interpretation of the scriptural definition of "love" sir?
     
  10. Mexdeaf

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    .......God......
     
  11. plain_n_simple

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    Love does not take offense at a suffered wrong.
    True love does not require to be loved back.
    Love always forgives.
    Love thinks the best.
    Love is trust.
    Faith works through love.
    Would you agree Mexdeaf? Where is my interpretation wrong with these statements?
     
  12. Yeshua1

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    the Bible clearly states though that God had the Cross of Christ already prepared as the solution/answer to the Fall before it even happened, and that God did predestined greater glory from out of it!
     
  13. 12strings

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    So what your saying is God was "pleased" to give them freewill, knowing that they likely would or certainly would abuse that free will and sin...but rather than rescend the free-will in order to prevent the fall...he didn't do it, but rather allowed it to happen?

    In other words, God values free-will more than he valued a sin-free world...would you not agree?
     
  14. Deacon

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    I don't usually post in this section, please pardon my intrusion.

    The chief end of all God’s purposes and works is the manifestation of his own glory.

    “For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all. Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!” (Romans 11:32–33, ESV)

    Archibald and Charles Hodge wrote an excellent resource, a Commentary on The Confession of Faith: With Questions for Theological Students and Bible Classes [LINK] that carefully leads one through the sections.

    I'd strongly encourage you to use it as you go through the Westminster Confession of Faith.

    Rob
     
  15. Van

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    The Simple Truth

    1) Of course God expected the fall because before creation God knew the Word would be the Lamb of God. You do not choose a Redeemer without (1) a need to redeem, and (2) a plan of redemption.

    2) The WCF says whatsoever comes to pass is ordained, predestined. This is rejected by many Christians who hold the view that God causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass. Thus God did not cause the Fall, but He did arrange for the Fall. He put the tree in the garden, told them the consequence of eating of its fruit, allowed Satan to deceive Eve, and allowed Adam to volitionally choose to sin, to transgress the clear command not to eat the fruit.

    3) Many folks claim the reason why God allowed the Fall is a mystery, but perhaps not so difficult to find in scripture. Remember Gideon and God's reduction in the size of his army.
    The reason given is that this would result in folks realizing God is the one who accomplished the task, so He gets the glory with no boasting by those who needed God's salvation.
    When we repent that brings glory to God. But when we repent in our fallen, predisposed to sin state, that brings more glory to God and eliminates any boasting about how we might have saved ourselves. Yes, it is a theory, but many verses tell us that salvation is all of God and so we cannot boast, but instead we are to give the glory for saving a wretch like me to God alone.
     
  16. humblethinker

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    So, If God were to explain love to us then, what would he say and how would it be different than Jesus on the cross?
     
  17. humblethinker

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    This might be closer to his thinking: God values the genuineness of a relationship with beings that are other than himself. A genuine relationship of love cannot be coerced or manipulated into existence, which is why he created this world.
     
  18. humblethinker

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    Assuming this is the case, then what is more glorious?:

    1) Creating a world in which beings other than himself are coerced into glorifying him such that their praise is not genuinely of their own.

    2) Creating a world in which beings other than himself glorify him such that their praise is genuinely from beings other than himself?
     
  19. 12strings

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    Would not #2 be consistent with God "allowing" the fall, even though he knew it would happen...which is the Point of your OP?
     
  20. 12strings

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    But you would have to say he values what you just said MORE than he values the eternal salvation of those creatures he created...and that he values what you just said MORE than a world without all the sin, pain, and suffering in this world...?

    If yes, then there is no problem saying it "pleased" God to allow the fall...

    If not, then you have to ask why he allowed the fall in the first place.
     

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