This Verse Has Been Thrown Around A Lot:

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by skypair, Oct 23, 2007.

  1. skypair

    skypair
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    John 6:44 No one can [2] come to Me unless the Father who sent Me [1] draws him; [3] and I will raise him up at the last day.


    Here -- same passage, same lesson -- this seems to be Jesus teaching on it: John 6:40 - "And this is the will of him that sent me, [1] that every one which seeth the Son [drawn], and [2] believeth on him [come], may have everlasting life: [3] and I will raise him up at the last day."

    Now some "drawn" don't "come." That's John 6:36 - "But I said unto you, [1] That ye also have seen me [drawn], and [2] believe not [didn't come]." Following the parallel then, these wouldn't be raised in the last day, right?

    At any rate, we can now see that "drawing" is not always "effectial" and that "coming" = believing, right?


    I know -- Isaiah 40:28 will object that, rather than give his/her long explanations following the citation, I insert numbers and interpretation into the verses. Ya know, it just seems simpler that way. :type:
    skypair
     
  2. ReformedBaptist

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    Looks like a pretty classic case of mixed up exegesis to me...
     
  3. Rippon

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    [edited--please post in grace, according to BB rules which you have ageed to]
     
    #3 Rippon, Oct 23, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 25, 2007
  4. BrotherJames

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  5. ReformedBaptist

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    Is this all growed up?

    [​IMG]
     
  6. Amy.G

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    Reformed, is that you in that pic? If so, that is too weird. You could be my husband's twin. Bandana and all! :laugh:

    Skypair, you need to remove your own wording that you have in brackets and you might understand this verse the way it was actually written. :rolleyes:
     
  7. ReformedBaptist

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    Yep, that's me gettin silly with the kids last saturday. Twas a beautiful day in GA. That's the kids play set. Only thing missing is the wife and one more kid. lol
     
  8. Amy.G

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    Well, they say everyone has a look-a-like somewhere in the world. :laugh:
    I can't get over that. Cute kids, though! :laugh:

    Now, if you put a pic of your wife that looks like me.........:eek:
     
  9. webdog

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    FYI...the BB police will delete any picture bigger than the BB logo in the upper left corner. I found out once the hard way... :)
     
  10. ReformedBaptist

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    Yer gonna have to share a pic of your husband then. I want to see my twin. lol
     
  11. ReformedBaptist

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    I dunno how to make it smaller. wait..photbucket may do that..
     
  12. webdog

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    Better hurry...I hear the sirens...
    "Drop the oversized photo, and come out with your hands up"!
     
  13. webdog

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    ...and to that I would counter to not assume the converse and inverse of those statments are also true (as calvinism does)
     
  14. Amy.G

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    I don't know what Calvinism does, but I can read it the way it's actually written. Now, go on and help RB before he gets arrested! :laugh:
     
  15. skypair

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    OK, Amy -- Let's try parallelling the parallels:

    Now follow the numbers:

    [1] draws = sees;

    [2] come = believes;

    [3] raise him up... = raise him up...

    I'm sure there's a way that you still can't see it. This is for anyone who still takes your objection seriously.

    skypair
     
  16. TCGreek

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    That's your equation, Skypair, not the Scripture's.
     
  17. Rippon

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    Hold up fellas' , SP insists that pi are round !
     
  18. TCGreek

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    Only SP can pull that off!. :laugh:
     
  19. David Lamb

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    Clearly your [3] is correct. "raise him up" = "raise him up". But how are you so certain that drawing equals seeing, especially as it is God Who does the drawing and man that does the seeing? The same with coming and believing. In this case, they are closely associated, and both done by man, but they are not equal, as Hebrews 11.6 shows:


    But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who
    comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
    Also, Jesus didn't speak in single verse snippets; before saying the words recorded in in John 6.40 about God raising up those who see and believe His Son, and John 6.44 about the necessity of the Father's drawing, He had already said in verse 37:


    "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out."


     
  20. skypair

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    First this: Does this not fit the pattern established by the other verses? If they "come," do they NOT believe?

    The real question raised by this verse is "How are believers "given" to Christ?" It is not as the Reformers teach -- by "election."

    And here is the answer: In the strictest sense (and in the only sense understood in the OT), a person must have the "righteousness of God" (JUSTIFICATION) before they are "given" to Christ. In the OT, this "plays out" very clearly -- those saints are not "given" to Christ until the postrib "resurrection of the just." This would be true even as Christ spoke here to His disciples.

    We take our justification before God for granted because we receive it and SANCTIFICATION (being indwelt by the Holy Spirit) at the same time. We are, indeed, "resurrected" as "just" through repentance from sins and are immediately indwelt by the Spirit, sanctified. And, in fact, when Jesus says they "will come," He is speaking about the future of many listening to Him at that moment! They won't die and wait until the resurrection of the just --- they will believe and not be cast out (into sheol?).

    So we see that "coming" is that moment when we believe on Christ.

    It's the "And if I be lifted up..." that tells us that all men will both be drawn and see. Do you disbelieve Jesus?

    Paul is breaking down "come" into 2 factors: 1) believing that He is and 2) believing that He is the Rewarder of them who diligently seek Him. Do you see that "believe" is the subject of both stipulations?

    Exactly -- so John 6:44 is not given in a vacuum as y'all seem to aver. There is context which I am bringing to bear on your "snippet" and considering.

    skypair
     
    #20 skypair, Oct 24, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 24, 2007

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