Those crazy preterists...

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Daniel David, Jan 15, 2005.

  1. Daniel David

    Daniel David
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    You gotta feel sorry for this movement. It started as an attempt to rescue Christ from the liberals. You see, the liberals stated that Christ was wrong, since he predicted his own return within a generation.

    Along come the preterists to save Jesus for the liberals. They say that he actually did come. Um, nevermind that none of the events happened, but he still did come. Snicker snicker.

    Preterism must destroy the rest of the NT to save Jesus from liberals.

    For example, preterists deny a bodily resurrection of believers. Just get ole grasshopper over here.

    Consider what Paul said though in Philippians 3:

    8 More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ,

    9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,

    10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death;

    11 in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead

    Paul was already saved when he wrote this. He wasn't talking about being saved here. He was talking about sharing in Christ's resurrection when his own body would be raised again.

    A little help grasshopper. Why don't you explain this away like you do everything else?
     
  2. Phillip

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    I understand the fight between Preterism and pre-mill. has already caused the break up and split of one medium sized Baptist church (I won't say in what state.) But, it is amazing what people will split up over.
     
  3. Daniel David

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    I agree with a split over this issue. Preterism is worthy of church discipline, as it removes too much of the NT to even be considered a Christian option.
     
  4. Phillip

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    Daniel, IMHO think this needs to be qualified.

    I believe that there is an area where the a certain level of Preterism is possible, but not to the point that Jesus does not return.

    In other words, I believe that it is possible that the tribulation COULD have occurred in the time of Jesus. For instance, one in bed will be taken another left, one in the field taken another left. Then Jesus says to run for the hills when it starts. This is what happened in 70AD. Half of the Jews were killed by the slaughter and the ones who survived headed for the hills. This also ties in neatly with the remark that this generation shall not pass before these things happen.

    I believe a person could take this position without stepping over the limit and still believe that Jesus is coming back to earth to reclaim His own and the millineum will begin.

    The problem I have is that ALL prophecy is fulfilled in the past. But, I don't know many Preterists who actually take that position.

    I personally, DON'T take this position, but I don't see that it is unacceptable. I would rather fuss with someone over theistic evolution than whether or not "Nero" was the anti-Christ.
     
  5. Grasshopper

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    I already did. However when I started asking questions you began the name-calling then ran away.

    However you have NEVER answered my question. Are the new Heavens and New Earth of Is 65 and 66 the same as Revelation 21?
     
  6. Phillip

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    I already did. However when I started asking questions you began the name-calling then ran away.

    However you have NEVER answered my question. Are the new Heavens and New Earth of Is 65 and 66 the same as Revelation 21?
    </font>[/QUOTE]You two sound like me and my wife. :D

    I'm waiting to see which one of you gets irrational so that I'll know which one acts like my wife. :cool: [​IMG]
     
  7. rjprince

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    We do not discipline over escbatology. In fact, when we started our church I wrote the Statement of Faith including a premil pretrib statement. After about 6 months, I took it out of the Doct Statement. Not because my position had shifted, but because I did not want to make that issue a test of faith and fellowship. Premil is still our church position and no teacher may teach from another perspective, but members are not required to be premil to join or remain.
     
  8. DeafPosttrib

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    grasshopper,

    You know that, I am not either partial or full preterist. I do not agree with preterism. Preterism believes all prophecies in the Bible both Old Testament and New testament already fulfilled in 70 A.D. If suppose, preterism doctrine is correct. Then, my question is, why there are so many people include Christians dying daily, more people are buried in the gravels daily? Where is the promise of the resurrection?

    Preterism believes saints' resurrection was fulfilled in 70 A.D. - spiritualize.

    Spiritualize?

    What about the resurrection of Jesus Christ? Was His resurrection spiritualize? Tell me, when Christ appeared to the disciples, He asked Timothy to touchhis hands, which were piecred by crucified, is this spiritualize?

    Preterism have lot of problems with its interpreting the Bible. Also, its deny future physical coming of Christ.

    Look at the world conditional of year 2005 A.D. Are we better than year 70 A.D.? Why there are so many wars over the world today?

    I consider preterism is more likely close to postmill than amill, because postmill teaches Church revolutionizes world into Christianity or better or perfect conditional.

    Bible teaches us, the world conditional is increasing worst toward the end of the world, right now, we are still in apostasy right now. Wicked is out there everywhere right now. How can the wicked be destroyed?

    The teaching of Preterism on 70 A.D. is no evidence that the end of the world is already past, because Jesus Christ is not present on this planet earth, the physical resurrection is not yet occur. Wicked of the world is not yet destroyed. Then, preterism is a heresy doctrine. I rather follow the Bible, what it saying than what men saying.

    By the way, Isaiah 65 & 66 is SAME with Revelation 21. Isaiah 65 & 66 both speak of future perfect eternality conditional, & eternality punishment. It fits with Revelation 20 and 21 about future eternality conditional.

    Isaiah 65 & 66 say nothing about 'a thousand years'. These speak of future eternality perfect conditional will be fulfilled at the end of the world after Christ's coming.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  9. robycop3

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    Jesus FIRST predicted the events of 70 AD, THEN He prophesied the END-TIME events. Scripture specifically warns us not to believe anyone who says, "Christ has returned, and He's living in the Gobi Desert" or something similar. He says there'll be NO MISTAKING His return, that EVERY EYE shall see him. Even though that's now possible with satellite TV, I believe He will be seen by all by use of His supernatural power.

    The Revelation was given AFTER the destruction of Jerusalem, sometime in the late 90s AD. This is to be tied in with Jesus'other prophecy about events in the sky, seas roaring, causing perplexity, men's hearts failing them for fear of what they see coming upon the earth.

    I believe the judgments that shall fall upon the earth will be caused by the approach of another planet-size body, accompanied by several large rocks that will become meteors striking the earth. Whether it will be one of the known planets, I won't guess. But every one of the Rev plagues could be caused by another planet's gravity, and meteors, as well as the natural phenoms described by Joel.

    And none of the Roman Caesars even came CLOSE to dominating the WORLD. The Romans were stopped in their eastward advance by the Germans, and in the British Isles by the Picts. There was another side of the earth, heavily populated, that never heard of the Romans till modern times. The Antichrist prophecy includes ALL NATIONS, PEOPLES, AND TRIBES, and his mark is a PHYSICAL thing. For the first time in history, it IS possible, by man-made means, to store one's personal info into a computer chip that can be implanted under the skin, and I believe that when it's implemented, the technology will be far more advanced past the present. While it isn't certain that a chip will be the means by which the mark is given, we SHOULD be aware that it CAN be done using TODAY'S tech.

    Why do I believe another planet will be the cause of catastrophe? because, if God were to use strictly supernatural means, men would realize ti was He acting. He will send strong delusion upon those who take the mark so they won't believe, and by using physical means to bring wrath, they'll blame it upon happenstance or "bad luck".

    More later, upon request. Gotta go now!
     
  10. rjprince

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    ROBYC3,

    I too hold to a late date for Revelation. Most preterists hold to an early date (THEY HAVE TO TO SUPPORT THEIR THEOLOGY!!!). Best arguement for an early date that I have seen is "Before Jerusalem Fell" by Kenneth Gentry. Have thoroughly marked up my copy! His presentation is the best I have seen, but I remained unconvinced and still hold to a date around 95 A.D. (refuse to write C.E.!!!)
     
  11. Daniel David

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    grasshopper, stop running away. The original post was about the bodily resurrection of believers.

    Do you or do you not believe that believers will be raised bodily?

    Btw, I must have missed or lost interest in whatever thread you are talking about. I am hardly afraid of preterism. My only fear is breaking a rib laughing at it.
     
  12. Phillip

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    Amen, DeafPostTrib,

    I believe there is some possibility that part of Jesus' speech referred to events of 70 AD, but if they did they also pertain to upcoming events. It i possible that some cripture can mean something for each generation. But, the base-line of Mathew 24 is the "Return of Jesus Christ" which has NOT YET HAPPENED.

    Great post, thanks!
     
  13. rjprince

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    Amen, Phillip!

    See Luke 21:20-22.

    Re the "all fulfilled" see John 19:28. Jesus had not yet died, not yet been buried in a rich man's tomb, side not yet pierced...

    Some use the "all" to suggest that AD 70 was the fulfillment of "all" prophecies. Not according to any kind of literal hermeneutic, it wasn't.
     
  14. HankD

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    "spiritual resurrection"?

    If the resurrection of Jesus Christ was a "spiritual" resurrection, then what happened to His body and where is it now?

    HankD
     
  15. KenH

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    I disagree. I don't think anyone should be disfellowshipped because he/she believes in the false teaching of premillennialism.
     
  16. Grasshopper

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    DPT
    Preterism is diveded into 2 groups, full and partial. One can hold to much of futurism and still take a preterist approach to many passages.

    Is there any doubt? What part of your life is worse than had you lived in the 1st century? If the Disciples could speak about today, what do you think they would say? You can turn on any TV, radio, or computer in almost all parts of the world and see the Gospel. The Bible has been translated into hundreds of languages and spread throught the world. Christianity is spreading into Africa and China as we speak. I think they would be elated at what started with the original 12.

    Where does Jesus teach He came to abolish physical death?

    John 8: 51Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

    He did abolish spiritual death for His Elect.

    The New Covenant is spiritual.

    No.It was not spiritual.

    Similar. Most A-Mill and Post-Mill would consider themselves partial-preterist.

    The Bible doesn't teach "end of the world". See
    Ecc. 1:4One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.

    Perhaps we should tear out several Hymns:

    We serve a risen saviour
    He's in the world today

    Is 65: 20There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

    So you have death and curses in your eternity?

    21And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.

    I guess we know what we will be doing. Glad I was raised on a farm. [​IMG]

    Is 66: 24And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

    Is this the heavenly amusement park?


    robycop3
    I assume you speak of the Olivet Discourse. If so then tell me at what verse He switches subjects from Jerusalem to the future. Do the same in Luke 17.

    No, Jesus warned those 1st cetury believers. By the way that event did in fact happen.

    Can you prove it? Why is its destruction mentioned nowhere in scripture? Was it not a significant event? What does Rev 1:1,3 mean?

    Those wouldn't be the phenoms that Peter said were happening at pentecost would they?(Acts 2:15)

    Really? What does world mean? What world does Luke 2:1 refer to?

    Were the signs literal/physical in Ex 13:9, Dt 6:8? The book of Revelation draws its imagery from the OT.

    rjprince
    Do you have to support yours?

    I too read Gentry's book when I first started this study. What suprised me the most was not the evidence of an early date(there is plenty), but the lack of evidence for the late date. I encourage everyone to read the book and decide for yourself.


    Luke 21:20-22 was not referring to His death burial or resurrection. What are the "days of vengeance"? In your view when will all things be fulfilled?

    I'll ask this question again since you wouldn't answer on the other thread:
    Had Jesus wanted to convey that the Olivet Discourse was to occur in the lifetime of His disciples which greek word would He have used, genos, gennema, or genea?


    Phillip
    So if those theologians who see the Olivet Discourse as past and still hold to a future coming would be inconsistent/wrong. Agree?

    Hank
    No preterist I have read or heard has ever taught this. No one denys Christ's physical resurrection.
     
  17. Grasshopper

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    DD
    Ok DD, I’ll play this game again.

    Gal 5:5For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

    Was Paul righteous when he wrote this?

    Rm 13: 11And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

    I thought Paul was already saved when he wrote this.

    I Peter 1: 5Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

    Wasn't salvation already revealed when Peter wrote this?

    According to Luke 21:28, no one has really been redeemed yet either. Right?

    Go ahead and give me your rebuttal. I already know what it is from the last time.
    Most if not all of the NT was written in the transitional period between covenants. The Old was passing away and the New was coming in.There is a concept of "already but not yet". Do a little studying and see what you come up with.

    Not anymore. Those who have died in Christ are now in their eternal state. They are not floating around waiting on their worm-eaten, flesh and blood bodies. What body is II Cor. 5:1,2?

    I Cor 15:21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

    Doesn't the resurrection brought by Christ have to match in nature the death brought on by Adam? If so then what death did Adam bring? What is Biblical redemption all about, physical or spiritual? If both, then you must prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that physical death resulted from Adam's sin. Get to it.

    Jn 5: 25Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

    Sounds alot like resurrection, does it not?
     
  18. Ed Edwards

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    Grasshopper: "Not anymore. Those who have died in
    Christ are now in their eternal state.
    They are not floating around waiting on
    their worm-eaten, flesh and blood bodies. What body is II Cor. 5:1,2?"

    This implies you know the part of the "worm-eaten, flesh and blood bodies"
    Jesus needs to build an eternal body. I call you, tell
    us the DNA based story of the
    part of the old worm-eaten, flesh and blood bodies
    is needed for Jesus to build an eternal body like
    Jesus has.

    Grasshopper: "No one denys Christ's physical resurrection."

    Sorry, if you deny the physical resurrection of the
    saints you deny the physical resurreciton of Christ.

    1 Cor 15:16-19 9KJV1769):

    16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
    17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain;
    ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also which are
    fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
    19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ,
    we are of all men most miserable.


    Grashopper said: "Those who have died in
    Christ are now in their eternal state."

    God said: "For if the dead rise not,
    then is not Christ raised:
    "

    Seems to me Grasshopper is implying that the
    dead in Christ have not and will not BE RAISED.
    If so, then Grasshopper is denying that Christ rose.

    I'm going to stick with what God says.
    I, of course, kindly let Grasshopper have an out [​IMG] (which DD never seemed to have
    thought of :( )
     
  19. Grasshopper

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    You might I don't.

    Jn 5: 25Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

    The dead are being raised.

    Seems to me Ed has no idea what I'm talking about. I see you are feeling better, perhaps now you can study Is 65 and 66.
     
  20. Ed Edwards

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