Those in hell for Arminianism and Calvinism

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Nicholas25, Dec 30, 2010.

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  1. Nicholas25

    Nicholas25
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    How awesome is it that we are saved by the grace of God and not correct theology? Praise God there are many in heaven who believed different on earth. I am going to give two thoughts and would love feedback on how they make you feel or what they make you think.

    1. Reformed Theology-God passed over some, left them in their sins, and because of not being elected, they will go to hell.

    2. Arminianism-God gave all men the free will to accept Him (although God had to draw them to Jesus, but all do get drawn equally, because God does not show favortism), but he allowed those to be born who He knew would not accept Him, and they die and go to hell.

    Both go to hell, but one goes because he was not chosen. Another goes to hell, because he did not accept Christ, but God still allowed him to be born knowing he would not accept God's son. Opinions? Thoughts?
     
  2. BobinKy

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    Cute.

    ...Bob
     
  3. convicted1

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    You are correct, we don't go to heaven or hell based on our theologies. The only reason why anyone goes to hell is because of unbelief.

    John 8:21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

    22 Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.

    23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

    24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

    No unbelievers will ever see what it looks like in glory! Only those who believe from the heart will go. This is why I say the only thing someone goes to hell for is unbelief!

    i am I am's!!

    Willis
     
  4. Winman

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    I am not Arminian, but I believe man has free will to accept or reject Christ.
    I also believe God in his foreknowledge knows who will reject Christ and go to hell. Does that make God cruel for creating this man? No, not if the man truly had the ability to accept Christ, the man made his own decision and is responsible.
    I also do not believe God determined this man goes to hell. If that was so, free will would not exist.
    You may have difficulty with this, but I believe God knows everything that will happen from the beginning, but he does not know it until it actually happens. Today if you reject Christ he knows that from the beginning. But tomorrow if you accept Christ, he knows that from the beginning. But neither are determined.
    I also believe he knows all possible outcomes.
    I still believe God can bring about any event he determines. The best analogy is chess. He lets you freely move where you wish, but he knows exactly where to move to bring you to checkmate.
     
  5. convicted1

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    Bro Winman,

    I am with you 100% in regards to freewill, but this statement here, I have a problem with. If God doesn't know something will happen until that moment, then how does He know everything that will happen? We are like this, we only know something AFTER it happens...we may have "inklings" that something is going to happen, but we don't really know until AFTER it comes to pass. This statement equates an infinite God with finite man in regards to knowledge. IDK, maybe I am reading into something that really isn't there, or maybe you typed this wrong?? Please elaborate on this further.


    Agree!!

    Agree!!

    Agree!!

    I agree with statement, however, I would have worded it differently. I believe that God knows from the time He made us, which way we would go, at what time, and where we would be at when He saved us. That being said, He didn't makes us for heaven or hell, but the choice was placed squarely upon us when He called.

    The analogy using chess I am "iffy" on. I know what you are trying to convey, but our DoG Brethern will tear this apart!! We are God's pawns, and He controls EVERY MOVE we make. It's really a fatalistic approach to the Word, if you ask me. We have every right to accept Christ or not, but those who reject, will suffer dire consequences for that choice!!

    i am I am's!!

    Willis
     
  6. psalms109:31

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    Fruitfull

    People are being born by two adults wanting children that can have them or some doing something they shouldn't be doing that they thought was just for fun and here comes the baby. People are being born because God wanted us to be fruitful, just like God wants us to be fruitful as Christ disciple's.

    Matthew 28:
    The Great Commission
    16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

    Acts 1:
    7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”
     
    #6 psalms109:31, Dec 31, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 31, 2010
  7. Winman

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    Willis, I told you it would be difficult to understand, but if man truly has choice, then God cannot know our decisions until we make them. Nevertheless, he can see all eternity in the future, so he can look back from there. This is beyond our comprehension.

    I also believe God can see all possible outcomes. If you cross the street and are struck by a car and killed, he sees that. But if you see the car and jump out of the way, and live a full life, he can see that too. Now, this is waaaay beyond our comprehension.

    I believe that there is a verse that says his knowledge is infinite, that is a mind boggling thing to consider.

    And I am not concerned about the Reformed guys, their theories are no better at explaining things than mine.

    I do not claim to be correct on my theories, but this is thebest I've come up with that satisfies scripture in my mind.
     
  8. convicted1

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    Bro Winman,

    This is where we differ in freewill. I believe that God, in our freewill, knows what decisions we make. Not that He makes us choose "this" or "that", but in His infinite knowledge, He knows what we will be doing twenty years from now, whether we eat corn flakes or cheerios, wear tennis shoes or dress shoes, visit the sick or stay at home, etc.


    I am sorry for making that comment about my DoG Brethern. It's just that I disagree with them as much as they disagree with me...for that, I am sorry if any of my DoG Brethern got offended by that statement in my prior post.

    I know what you mean by this statement. The beliefs I have are due to my reading of His Word, and I pray that the conclusions I have come up with, are right. I have changed my stance on some things, so I am never too "settled" that I can't change my mind, if/when He shows me where I am wrong....we all need to be this way!!

    i am I am's!!

    Willis
     
  9. jbh28

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    So God doesn't know everything.
    so God does know the future...which is it?
    But you said that God doesn't know our decisions before we make them.
     
  10. jbh28

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    You go to hell because of your sin. You go to heaven because of Christ.
     
  11. pinoybaptist

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    yeah. everything is God's fault. He allows people to be born whom He already knows will not accept Him. He demands faith from people whom He knows does not have the faith to even have faith. He arbitrarily elects one over the other FROM A GOD-REJECTING FALLEN HUMANITY, ANYWAY, and thus shows favoritism instead of mercy.

    What a stupid, spoiled brat God, who owns the very air you and I breathe.
     
  12. Winman

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    No, I am saying God can look back from the future and see everything that will happen.

    I believe in free will and choice, and at the same time believe God can bring about what he has determined.

    Like I said, the best analogy I can think of is chess. God allows you to freely make any move you wish. But I believe God can react, just like a master chess player can do, and no matter where you move that master player is still going to make the perfect moves to put you in checkmate. But you as his opponent truly has the freedom and choice to make your own decisions and move where you want.

    Jonah is an example of this, God wanted him to preach to Ninevah, but Jonah chose to run away. God reacted to Jonah's move and made a great storm arise. God knew Jonah would be cast into the sea and so prepared a whale to swallow him. Jonah still had the freedom to do as he wished, but decided to obey God at this point. So, I do believe God can exercise influence over us, just as a master chess player can do. There is strategy involved. At the same time his opponent always has freedom to make his own moves.

    Just my theory, I could be wrong.
     
  13. preacher4truth

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    God knows everything that will happen and come to pass. To say God doesn't know something "until it actually happens" pretends that things occur to God that He never knew.

    I believe God to be Sovereign, omniscient and omnipresent, and that He doesn't have a blindfold on until events take place.

    It's not that it's "difficult to undertand" that error, it's just that it's plain false and there is absolutely no Scriptural grounds for espousing this ideological fallacy, and I for one totally reject such a notion.

    There is no Scriptural basis for this whatsoever.
     
  14. Luke2427

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    I'd like to add one thing to your scenario.

    The reason the people go to hell in the Calvinist scenario is for the glory of God.

    There is no DISPLAY of the glory of his wrath and holiness with the damnation of sinners.

    But the reason the people go to hell in the Arminian scenario is because God so needed them to choose him that he'd rather them go to hell than not to.
     
  15. Winman

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    Then you admit God could know from the beginning who will freely choose Christ and elects them?

    There is hope for you yet.
     
  16. Luke2427

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    Yes, you are right that unbelief dooms the soul.

    You are right that one must believe if he is to be saved.

    But who believes?

    Those to whom God grants faith are the only ones who will believe.
    American Standard Version
    Philippians 1:29 "because to you it hath been granted in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer in his behalf:"

    It must be granted because- "The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God for they are foolishness unto him, NEITHER CAN HE, for they are spiritually discerned." I corinthians 2:14

    That's why God must appoint men to eternal life and those men believe-
    King James Bible
    Acts 13:48 "And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."
     
  17. Luke2427

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    That's not the issue.

    You are wrong. God cannot see an event that happens on it's own and then decide to do something about it. He cannot because it cannot happen apart from his power.

    Who believes?

    Those to whom God grants faith are the only ones who will believe.
    American Standard Version
    Philippians 1:29 "because to you it hath been granted in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer in his behalf:"

    It must be granted because- "The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God for they are foolishness unto him, NEITHER CAN HE, for they are spiritually discerned." I corinthians 2:14

    That's why God must appoint men to eternal life and those men believe-
    King James Bible
    Acts 13:48 "And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."
     
  18. Luke2427

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    This is open theism. It is what Arminianism logically trends toward when followed through to it's logical conclusion.

     
  19. preacher4truth

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    Oh boy. :rolleyes:

    Jesus denies Winmans error that, according to Winman, "He doesn't know things until they happen." I've truly never heard such bunk in all my life.

    He knew His Death, Burial, and Resurrection before it happened. He sent the prophets to tell what exactly would happen. He also told Peter how he would die, which was yet future. He also prophesied of His second coming.

    My God isn't limited to your "when it happens then He knows." That is to place Him on the same level as man. Which seems to be the case in arminian thought, such as you embrace. We believe Him to be Sovereign and all-knowing, not on our level, but Holy. No wonder arminians believe they have to have a part in choosing and believe other things that show man is the one choosing God, instead of God doing it on His own.

    Now by your belief that He doesn't know things until they happen, I am beginning to understand why you don't see it clearly. :)
     
  20. psalms109:31

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    It is God

    Some how it is God fault for man going to hell because He hasn't regenerated them for Him to receive glory for the one's He does regenerate?

    I'll give you another scenario.

    God has given us the ability to have children, but if we don't procreate there will be no one being born to go to hell.

    God has given us the ability to be born again by the Spirit, but if we do nothing with Him no one will be born again.

    God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. God has given us that to not change the all to fit our doctrine, but to go out and have the same desire as God.

    I blame man for not doing anything with what God has given them. No man can be regenerated without the word that we are to proclaim. God will receive the glory for doing what His word says He will do.

    It is a simple message those who believe(trust) in Jesus shall be saved and those who does not will be condemned.
     
    #20 psalms109:31, Dec 31, 2010
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