Those who have never heard

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Rippon, Feb 21, 2007.

  1. Rippon

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    I know that this subject was mentioned before -- but we tend to rehash things here on the BB anyway , don't we ?

    Is it true , or is it not ? : God has not arranged for all people to hear the gospel . Millions have never heard a word about Christ . But the Bible says : Even so , Father , for it seemed good in your sight . ( Matt.11:26 )

    In the following passages God has made sure that many do not hear the gospel . Take a gander at Ps.147:19,20 ; Acts 14:16 ; Acts 16:6,7 . But all of the aforementioned does not frelieve us of the mandate of the GC .

    This brings me to comment on John 3:16 . I have mentioned before that I appreciate the HCSB's rendering of this famous text . Also the NJB and the ISV do the verse justice . Even the alternate footnote of the ESV words it correctly . In such a manner , in such a way . The love of God is certainly stressed in the verse but it is not about that He SO loved the world . In other words , it was by the means of Christ's death that God the Father demonstrated His love . God loved His elect ones scattered throughout the world that He gave His Son with the intention that by Him every believer would be saved . Christ died for all of God's elect and gave them belief . Christ did not die for those who would have been saved if only they believed . The biblical order has been tampered with by mainstream evangelicals and fundamentalists .

    God has not revealed Jesus to everyone in the world . And by "world" so many here think each and every person who has , is , and shall live . Can God love those who He doesn't want to hear the Good News ? That would be odd ! Why would God give His Son for millions but not see to it that they hear such a critical message ? Can there really be a general affection for all which tolerates the perishing of many of those He loved ? The answer is : " No" .

    In John 4;42 Christ is called " The Savior of the world " . But to be a Savior of people not saved is contradictory . So , those called " the world " must be those who are indeed saved . Otherwise how could He have given His Son for those to whom He did not give the grace to believe ?

    My contention is that all who are actually redeemed are all He intended to redeem . God knows what He is doing. He did not appoint a Savior without deciding who should be saved . Could He ordain a means ( Christ's death ) without being sure of the outcome ? In Isaiah 53:11 it says ( In my NLT2) " When He sees all that is accomplished by His anguish He will be satisfied ." That tells me that God determined who would be saved and it was not left up to man . God determined the number( each individual ) of those to be saved and the Lord was satisfied with that .

    Christ was not the substitue for all , if that was the case all would be saved . "In my place condemned He stood "-- we sing . And I believe those words. But in the place , in the room of , in my stead and FOR His elect ones only . I just do not see how professing believers can ignore or twist the scriptural fact that Christ died for His sheep -- He laid down His life for them . He did not die for the sheep and everyone else . It was the Church which He bought with His own blood --- not the Church and everyone else .He did not die for all people . You are commanded to believe the scriptures . Understand them , accept them . But don't do a runaround with "Yes , but ..."

    And don't give me the idea that you are more gracious than God Himself . Do you think that your heart is more tender than the compassionate heart of ther Father who sent Jesus to this world ?

    I usually study brevity . However , I have much more to say . I await your comments ( and will brace for some assaults ) .
     
    #1 Rippon, Feb 21, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 21, 2007
  2. amity

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    I don't believe the "calling" of the New Testament means simply hearing the gospel. I believe it is the inward call that regenerates, the circumcision of the heart.

    No, obviously most people who have ever lived have never heard the gospel. But the Bible tells us that Christ has redeemed a people out of every nation, kindred, and tongue.
     
  3. GordonSlocum

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    Here you have it - The Truth and Nothing But The Truth


    Time for bed - Everyone don't forget to pray for Bob. See everyone sometime tomorrow.
     
    #3 GordonSlocum, Feb 21, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 21, 2007
  4. Rippon

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    Care to elaborate on why you think that John 1:1-9 explains to your satisfaction my contentions in the OP ?
     
  5. Rippon

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    No objections anyone ? Even G.S. did not register a disagreement surprisingly . I must have been very scriptural in my OP . I strive for that .
     
  6. skypair

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    What you are proving, sir, is that there are myriad ways to pervert what the scriptures say!

    You should be "keeping [guarding] the word of His patience," instead you are guarding the words of Calvinism!

    skypair
     
  7. pinoybaptist

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    oh, oh, watch out, Rippon, you've offended the Grand Bishop.
     
  8. Rippon

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    It's kind of fun to get a reaction from his Highness .
     
  9. Pastor_Bob

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    Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

    Isa 52:10 The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.

    John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
     
  10. Tom Butler

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    It would be helpful if you would explain how God has done that. I understand how God has manifested himself in creation. Now, how has every person without exception heard the gospel of Jesus Christ?

    And, if they have, what is the purpose of sending missionaries?
     
  11. webdog

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    Missionaries are one mean by which God uses to spread the Gospel. Revelation 14:6 shows an angel spreading the Gospel...so we know of at least two means. It is impossible to explain exactly how God "has done that". Likewise, it cannot be stated there will be people whe die who have never heard the Gospel. That is a conclusion that finite minds come to, and cannot be proven. I will take Scripture at face value, and It states Christ is the Light that lights ALL men.
     
  12. Ivon Denosovich

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    My theory:

    1) It is intuitive that there is a Creator.

    2) It is intuitive that I/man am/are sinful and need to be foriven by my Creator.

    3) If I accept my Creator's forgiveness then by default I accept the method by which he forgives me (i.e. applying the redeeming the blood of Christ to my soul).

    4) If I accept my Creator's forgiveness then by default I put faith in His ability to forvige (i.e. Christ literally empowers God to forgive so Christ literally is His ability to forgive).

    5) Therefore, the plan of salvation is intuitive.

    6) This explains how God's plan of salvation really has appeared unto all men including the Israelites in the OT who had never heard the name of Christ much less the Romans Road.

    Evangelistic regards,
    Moi
     
  13. Ivon Denosovich

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    I still stronly believe witnessing to be important because it's very easy to lie to one's self and "tune out" that which we know.

    Further evangelistic regards,
    Moi
     
  14. rjprince

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    One big problem with your theory is the account of Cornelius. He knew he was a sinner. He knew to worship the God of Israel. But, that was not enough. He had to hear the Gospel of the substitutionary death of the Lord Jesus, His death, and resurrection, according to the Scriptures. Or, why even bother with the appearance of the angel, the messengers to Joppa, the trip by Peter and the proclamation of the gospel.


    Oh, and why do we send missionaries? Because it is commanded, not because it is necessary. God could mail them all gospel tracts, but that was not the command...


    We preach the gospel to be obedient to the Lord, not to get men saved. Some will get saved, some will not. In either case, we preach the gospel to those who have never heard the specific details of how sinful man can approach a thrice holy Creator.

    RJP
     
  15. J.D.

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    Let's think of this issue in terms of Providence. Is it scriptural and/or logical that God would not provide His elect with a Gospel witness? Surely He would.

    The general revelation (nature) is sufficient to condemn, so that they are without excuse. But is has no saving power. The fallen nature of man necessitates that the very evidence by which they "know" God is in fact the evidence by which they are condemned. They "knew God", but "glorified him not as God, neither were they thankful". It does not say "but when they knew God, they were saved".

    No one has ever been nor ever will be saved by general revelation. The Gospel, and only the Gospel, is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believes.
     
  16. TCGreek

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    Well argued JD. I believe philosopher Alvin Plantinga of Notre Dame has argued for salvation through general revelation.
     
  17. Ivon Denosovich

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    With all due respect, rjprince, I feel you are misinterpreting that passage. But to determine if my reading is accurate:

    1) Which specific point that I listed do you disagree with and why? I humbly request you reread the list. Please.

    2) How do you account for OT salvation of Jews who had never heard the Gospel of Christ?

    3) How "much" of the Gospel do I have to understand? The virgin birth is certainly a vital part of the Gospel. A child who doesn't understand the concept of virginity cannot truly be said to fully believe in the Gospel account. (You have to understand something in order to belive it.) So, again, how "much" of the Gospel do I have to understand: specifically, which details?

    Please don't interpret this as a harsh interrogation. This is written from a man who once adamantly agreed with your perspective.

    In Christ,
    Moi
     
    #17 Ivon Denosovich, Sep 14, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 14, 2007
  18. Amy.G

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    I don't think general revelation is what saves, but general revelation does not condemn. It's the rejection of it that condemns. What happens when a person accepts general revelation? Does God reveal more of Himself? I believe He does.
     
  19. webdog

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    Great point Amy :thumbs:
     
  20. Jarthur001

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